Jane's Posts

Mar 22 2004 10:15 am

One of these days I'll know the right thing to say to put him back in his box. Lets just say its my latest challenge.

Ooh, ooh, pick me!

"Shut the fuck up or I'll rip your head off and tear your lungs out through the bloody stump."

I swear, it works every time.

jane

Mar 22 2004 8:05 pm

Jane, do people ever tell you that you have a gift for subtlety? No? I see why.
Anne

Well, I am a proponent of gun control. Because really a more effective response would be to just shoot him.

I'm not big on holding my tongue until later. I don't get the point.

jane

Mar 24 2004 12:08 am

I have two days to decide here folks. Maybe it's time I decided what to do by myself without relying on you guys?

Pfffft.

My main problem is that I wouldn't take this kind of shit from anyone else, so why put up with it from him just because he's my Dad?

Well, duh, because he's your dad. We don't choose them, Nik, and none of them are perfect. Still, you can make your feelings clear, and you can decide what you'll accept and what you'll avoid.

The bottom line is what it always is. He upsets you because you let him. If you don't want him to, then you've got to look to yourself.

jane

Mar 14 2004 10:36 pm

What do you guys consider appropriate for 16 2/3? Good grades. Driving.

jane

Mar 15 2004 8:08 pm

Weekends are a different story. Clubs close in our small town at 2 am, so she could be as late as 2.30, before I'd worry. Yes, she did go and succeed in getting into clubs at the age of 16.

I just can't handle this. Not clubs, necessarily, but parties. I don't want her going to parties with sex, drugs, and rock and roll. Or beer. I'm not ready.

jane

Mar 15 2004 8:10 pm

Jane, in your shoes, I'd be saying, "What the hell do I need a curfew for *Lee* for?" That's what I'd be saying. She's getting what, straight A's? Good head on her shoulders, never lies about where she's going to be, tells you up front if there's any issue, doesn't ignore safety issues to be part of the crowd, not sexually active and doesn't do drugs, I'd make sure she always kept her cell phone charged and that she knew we were going to revisit it if I ever had any cause for concern, and let it go.

Did she pay you? She clearly briefed you - and all my friends here - on what to say. It's a conspiracy.

jane

Mar 16 2004 12:17 am

Well, what are you not ready for? Are you afraid she'll get talked into something she doesn't want to do? Are you afraid she'll get her drink spiked, or what?
Anne

You know what I love about my kid?

My friend asked me what I thought could happen, and I said, "All sorts of things could happen at parties. You could get drunk and throw up or be sitting beside the guy someone shoots or have sex with someone and not remember why."

Lee said, "Well, this clearly isn't about me."

jane

Mar 19 2004 10:46 am

Jane, did Lee get served over here? Or do I need to ask Lee?
Nikki

She said that she never ordered alcohol without an adult. It's funny over here. When I was growing up, if the parents didn't object, the waiter would serve the kids. Nowadays, you can have wine with dinner at home, but not in restaurants.

jane

Mar 19 2004 10:54 am

Of course. The phone was supposed to be *off*. That was the rule that I imposed on them, so as to satisfy the school's need for order, which was the reason for the "no cell phones/pagers" rule in the first place.

Lee's is supposed to be on vibrate, but she usually doesn't have network at her school anyway.

On a related note, cell phones used to be banned here. Then they had those shootings at high schools here, and they rescinded the rule.

jane

Mar 21 2004 11:21 am

After a year of driving when I'd integrated that enough, I returned to occasional drinking and not driving, and occasional driving and not drinking. Then over time it balanced out and I will have one drink with a meal or after a meal and still drive, but only one, never more. Mind you my Dad got done for drink driving twice when I was a child and being witness to what a year-long ban does to a person did a lot to motivate me to never drink and drive.

Here, at least with girls, that drivers license seems to be their most closely guarded possession. I don't really worry about Lee drinking and driving. She and her friends flatly refuse to drive anyone around before their "six months." They have designated drivers.

One of her friends recently got in trouble with her parents for not coming home all night. Turns out she couldn't drive home because she was drinking. So even though she knew she'd be screwed the next day, she still didn't drive home.

I'm getting into a much better place with this BTW. Thanks, everyone.

jane

Mar 11 2004 10:57 pm

you teach a child to tell an authority figure no, you run into issues later with them telling the babysitter "i don't have to look both ways because you're not my parent"...

I'm missing something. What do you tell the child to say when she get's the "bad touch"?

jane

Mar 13 2004 12:47 pm

I'm missing something. What do you tell the child to say when she get's the "bad touch"?

"i don't like that, and i'm telling my parents"....

I don't want my kid to endure abuse and tell me about it later. I want to make it very clear to her that she does not have to endure abuse without resistance.

In fact, as a mother, the thing I like most about my kid is that she has a fine sense of the respect she is entitled to. She reminds me of Vicki. Or maybe Vicki reminds me of her, because it seems to me that Lee was born with it. So, the only credit I can take for her having this quality is that I didn't totally mess it up.

People have to be able to stand up for themselves and for what they believe is right. If they are not going to be victims they must refuse to be abused. We don't have all that long to teach our kids these things. One thing that makes absolutely no sense to me is the idea that you can teach kids to act one way for 18 years and they'll suddenly do things differently when they become adults.

jane

Mar 7 2004 10:39 am

So, what that means for us is that I now have rare kid-free nights and he has all kid-free nights. He's becoming kind of annoyed with the whole change of scene.

Up to here, I'm with you.

My feeling is that I have this small amount of time left to be the parent, and I damn well better be one. To me, that means being the home base person--being around most of the time in the evenings so I can keep at least loose tabs on my son's coming and going. My gut says that he's not quite a child, and not quite an adult and still needs to know that I am the established person who he knows is around. If he has a house full of friends coming and going, I don't feel right about going out and leaving them. I don't feel right about going out when someone else's kids are here for the night, even if all the kids are in and out of the house all evening.

Here you lose me. Getting Lee to go out at night is not a challenge. Whether DH and I hang out at home or go out, I have my cell. I'm fine with leaving her home, too. If we want to go out and we're not comfortable with her friends, I tell her she can't have friends over that night.

My SO has pretty much decided that he doesn't like to come over when my son's around, because they're pretty different in temperament and lifestyles.

Fine, fine, mature choice.

But, now he's disappointed that we don't spend enough time together.

Well, yeah, you're not. Deb, the rest is nutty. Whether your son visits his father is absolutely none of your SO's business. I wouldn't even discuss it with him. Especially if he's pissed at you because he doesn't see his own kids.

But you not putting enough time into your relationship with SO is totally his business. I cannot believe that you can't find a second night a week to spend with him. What about Friday? Or Sunday? Or whatever night you both happen to be free?

I hate feeling in the middle of conflict.

What do you mean by this?

jane

Mar 07 2004 11:09 am

I guess one of my questions is, am I being an overcautious parent?

No, no. But you're lying to yourself if you think you're doing this because you're protecting your son. You're pissed as hell at your SO.

IME, in MY life, this is a bad fight to have. What you are arguing about is *not* the problem. And really, it's unfair to your son to pretend it is. If you're angry that SO does not meet your needs, fight about that. If you feel he bullies you, fight about that. If you resent that he expects you to meet his needs, fight about that.

I don't know how to counter my SOs disappointment without feeling defensive about it.

Maybe feel offensive about it. Maybe write him a letter you're not going to send. You know how you can sort of channel yourself? One thing leads to another to another, and you find yourself saying things you didn't even know you were thinking? Or, of course, counselling.

Do you two discuss where you want your relationship to go from here? I understand why you would not get married with all those teen boys around. But did you have plans for after they grew up?

Because your SO is childless and single and hooks up with his GF once a week. I can't criticize him for wanting something more. And there is no way I would buy that torture time with my DH and his teen kid counted as "Time For Us." What I am hearing from you is that you don't want to put any more effort into your relationship right now than you already are. I'm also getting whiffs of you aren't sure that you will want to in the future. I get the feeling that you feel you have to protect yourself.

jane

Mar 07 2004 2:23 pm

You're probably exactly right for at least part of this. I feel like I put a huge effort into this for a long time. I spent countless hours doing family-type things with him and his kids. I did all the hosting, cooking, etc. at my house whenever we got together. I put a lot of effort into trying to be flexible around his schedule with his kids, around his work and school schedule when he was in grad school, around his lack of money when he was the poor one, and around trying to gently back off when he'd tell me he wasn't ready to move in whatever direction we seemed to be headed. I feel like he's rejected full commitment to me piece-by-piece. I've spent so much time making sure I've sufficiently backed off, that now I have trouble seeing us at all sometimes.

Okay, but.

I'm feeling around in the dark here. There's something I'm not getting. Over the years from time to time you've mentioned that SO backed out of your wedding plans. Your position has always been that it was probably for the best.

Deb, if you feel that your needs haven't been met over the years, bitch slap yourself. Then, go in strong with: My needs *will* be met in this relationship, or there won't be one. What you're doing now is bitching because he did manage to get his needs met and because he's pushing to get them met now. That's not the approach I'd take, because that's not the problem.

I can't figure out how to say this right. I just finished power-reading The Hobbit for my book club, and I keep thinking in terms of trolls and elves and dwarves.

I always regret it when I come at one of these conflicts sideways. Half way through I realize that everything I've said up to that point has nothing to do with what I'm mad about; 3/4 of the way through I realize that I'm really mad at myself.

Your consideration for SO's situtation in the past has nothing to do with anything. Whether SO likes DS or not has nothing with anything. What you need to know is how SO will act. Regardless of how he feels about your son (or anything else), does SO consider your feelings and wishes to be significantly important to suck it up sometimes. Apparently, you don't feel he does enough, and he feels he does too much.

I don't want to reject my family (my son) and I don't feel like he likes him very much. I worry about what that would mean in the future.

I'll tell you something, Deb. I'm not happy about the next part of this. But it's got to be said. I think you're using your son as a shield. Parenting is pretext here. You're not arguing you *want* to be home with your son; you're arguing that you *need* to. Your SO doesn't believe that, and neither do I. Of course, if you're like me, you could argue to the death on that point, and never get to the real issue, like maybe why SO is giving you shit for doing what you *want* to do or why he shows no respect for your commitments or the other relationships in your life, or why you don't feel he puts as much into your relationship with him as he expects from you.

I'm not trying to make this about me, but I do relate it to my experience. I feel like an idiot when I realize that I have been fighting tooth and nail over something I really don't believe. It's always, always because there is something unpalatable about saying what I do believe. I don't know if you don't want to tell your SO that you just aren't interested in seeing him that much anymore, or you've got some problem with saying, "because want it, that's why, damn it" or you're challenged in the area of deciding when your own interests come first and pretext is safer. I'm just saying, pick solid terrain for your battles.

jane

Mar 07 2004 7:39 pm

We've made some moves in the right direction. We've decided that a weekend away every month or so would be a good thing. We both realize how we avoid conflict, and are going to make an effort to say what's on our minds as it comes up.

Excellent, excellent, and excellent.

I still believe that the parenting aspect is a real issue for me, and I have to treat it that way to be honest with myself.

Right. Look, about earlier... I don't explain this stuff well.

People very often do not argue about what is bothering them. They argue about what they both feel comfortable arguing about. That you would choose this place to take a stand makes perfect sense to me. Of course you can't leave your son home alone all night if you don't feel comfortable. Why your SO is choosing this place is not at all clear to me.

I had a good afternoon. I enjoyed it.

Also excellent.

jane

Mar 09 2004 12:20 pm

That confuses me too because I thought he wanted to spend more time with you - that's not being by himself.

I guess this translates into preferring being by himself over joining in with my family time. When he wants to do something, he'll happily do it by himself, which isn't a bad thing, but I feel that he's backed off from a relationship with the "whole me" preferring one with the "childfree me." He's kind of used to living in a self-centered world, I think.

I don't know, though. I don't feel comfortable with contrasting the *whole* you with the *childfree* you. And I'm not sure it has anything to do with being self-centered.

I think a mate should support you in all your roles. I'm not sure it's reasonable to expect him to get into all of them, though. You're different people with different interests, different lives.

I don't particularly enjoy family time with other people's families. I don't hang out with my friends in their houses when their kids are coming in and out. I don't like the distraction, the divided attention, the regular interruptions. It's frustrating. I like to be able to focus on my friend.

jane

Mar 09 2004 10:25 pm

I don't mean selfish, but centered around himself, not outwardly centered. Does that even make sense?

No. But that might be because I'm the same way and don't see it.

But, as much as he's feeling adrift because I'm still very involved in the parenting role, I'm feeling adrift because he's backing away from that part of my life. Hence the confusion, or at least part of the confusion.

People handle kids leaving the nest in different ways, I think. Besides, his kids have left sooner than yours. He's in a different stage of life. Maybe he misses them and doesn't want to be around other parents whose kids haven't left yet. You know, like when you break up and you can't stand being around people in love.

Plus, I believe that the more you back away and ask others to back away, the less meaningful a relationship becomes. It becomes mostly about being different people with different lives. That's when I start my inner self-protection behavior.

Yeah, this I don't get. You *are* different people with different lives. You, for example, are still actively parenting a child in the home. He's past that stage now. I guess I just don't see how it's backing away. He's just a step ahead of you. Maybe it's significant that the step he has gone is not one you're not entirely looking forward to taking yourself.

I guess I expect more assimilation in a relationship than I would with a friend, though.

I'm not sure I do. I'm not sure I know what you mean, though.

jane

Mar 11 2004 10:55 pm

The ideal for me is when the relationship has both room for maintaining the differences in your lives *plus* a lot of good mingling and mixing of everything that makes up each individual's life

Yeah, I'm not like that. I don't want a lot of mingling and mixing of everything. For example, DH is not allowed to mention sports in my presence. I just walk away.

Or take ASSP. DH is aware that I like Anne and Melissa, but he has no idea who is who, and probably doesn't realize they're different people. In fact, I'm not sure he knows Melissa and Vicki are different people.
Work stuff we touch base on and listen politely when the other is fired up about something.
We share interests to different degrees.

jane

Mar 6 2004 1:10 pm

http://www.fypl.info/
~~Geri~~

Thank goodness, I hadn't gotten around to KFing you yet!

I never did an IPIP-NEO before. So I googled up this:

http://www.personalitytest.net/ipip/ipipneo1.htm

No kidding. This is fascinating.

EXTRAVERSION...............53
..Friendliness.............76
..Gregariousness...........84
..Assertiveness............44
..Activity Level...........12
..Excitement-Seeking.......49
..Cheerfulness.............39
AGREEABLENESS..............40
..Trust....................42
..Morality.................47
..Altruism.................34
..Cooperation..............49
..Modesty..................25
..Sympathy.................77
CONSCIENTIOUSNESS..........32
..Self-Efficacy............41
..Orderliness..............2
..Dutifulness..............61
..Achievement-Striving.....73
..Self-Discipline..........34
..Cautiousness.............55
NEUROTICISM................11
..Anxiety..................14
..Anger....................23
..Depression...............23
..Self-Consciousness.......3
..Immoderation.............40
..Vulnerability............29
OPENNESS TO EXPERIENCE.....87
..Imagination..............35
..Artistic Interests.......61
..Emotionality.............31
..Adventurousness..........98
..Intellect................78
..Liberalism...............99

These are not the numbers I would have assigned to myself. I sound like Auntie Mame!

jane

Mar 6 2004 11:58 am

Ages ago now. Barclay, Madi and I drove down and met him and his adorable daughter and we all went out for lunch.

I had so much fun meeting Kevin. My DH had a good time, too. He's not a big socializer, my DH. And he's always been a little hostile to the internet. Meeting Merrie was such a pleasure that after a couple of "you want me to go where to do what's" he was game for driving a hundred miles to meet Kevin et. al. Since then he has this idea that I spend my cyberlife having fascinating discussions with beautiful, charming, thoughtful, intelligent, and gracious people from all over the world. Which, of course, I do.

jane

Mar 6 2004 12:26 am

*IMO*, and that's all it's ever been, an opinion, which is just as valid as the opinion of anyone else here

Whoa. You are certainly entitled to your opinion as much as anyone else. Validity is an entirely different matter.

jane

Mar 06 2004 9:03 am

I disagree. *Everyone's* opinion is valid. that's why it's called *opinion*. Lori

That makes absolutely no sense to me. People have opinions about everything. Some are well thought out, carefully considered. Some are based on experience. Some are nutty shit that people come up with off the top of their heads.

Maybe you are using a definition of "valid" that is unique to you. An opinion is "valid" if it's sound, cogent, logical, well-reasoned, related to fact. Other opinions may be formulated in ignorance, without much reasoning or consideration. Maybe they are knee-jerk reactions to fears. Maybe they are simply necessary to the individual to support a shaky belief structure.

jane

Mar 5 2004 11:53 pm

Others here might not see it this way, but I see it as an honorable decision on his part.
Deb R.

I don't even care about what his decision is. I'm just happy that he's figuring it out.

So, look, Lee's considering Clark. Her father thinks it isn't a good enough school, but she wants a good psych program, and I think it's worth checking out. Is there any chance that she can have lunch with your son and his GF and get the scoop on Worcester? What are the odds?

Vicki, Melissa, any chance of hooking her up in Mt Holyoke? When is spring break for them?

jane

Mar 6 2004 12:11 am

Good questions. I think she's planning to spend spring break with friends in Boston, but I'll ask.

Well, I was thinking that Lee's spring break might happen while they are in classes. Then she could go up and maybe attend a class, and have coffee with one of your kids and sort of get the skinny. Or depending how booked their time in Boston is, that might work, too.

jane

Mar 6 2004 12:15 am

Italian Literature?
What does she want to do for a career?
~~Geri~~

What the hell is wrong with you today? If you want to fight about something, just ask.

FTR, I want Lee to go to college so that she will be a well-educated person, not to learn a trade.

jane

Mar 6 2004 11:43 am

They're probably not entirely representative of the everyday kids in Worcester so she might get a skewed view. If she likes loud, underground music of all types and kids with eccentric viewpoints they'll be fine.

Deb, I don't know what to say. I have no idea what Lee and your son would make of each other. OTOH, the both eat low carb diets and like photography. OTOH, she looks like Julia Stiles in Mona Lisa Smile half the time, and I never have any idea what music she'll listen to next. The other day, listening to 'You Can't Touch This,' she turned to me and said, "Mom, the man's a genius." I was just thinking that your son and his friends know what Worcester is like.

Speaking of Clark, I have to brag a bit. My ex was talking to the photography teacher at Clark, where my son currently has a little show up.

Well, this is fabulous. How impressive! How long will it be up? It would be so perfect if it were still up in a couple of weeks. Then Lee could check out Clark, and she and her father could check out your son's photos. They bond over photography.

When would Lee be making the trip if she were to come this way?

Vicki

April 2 - 10.

jane

Mar 7 2004 10:41 am

I'll find out. You just want someone to take her around the campus and tell her what it's like?

Vicki

I want the part you don't get in the admissions office tour. I want someone who can tell her what it's like there. What coffee shop stays open all night. What departments and professors rock. Where people study when their roommates are manic and where they party when their roommates are drones.

jane

Mar 9 2004 12:51 am

Stevie says, sure, come on, Lee can stay overnight on her floor if she'd like. (Stevie has a sleeping bag, if Lee wants something softer she'll have to bring an air mattress or something.) She says call Admissions at MHC and ask about meal vouchers. She sounded really pleased about it, and said that it's always fun to show "prospies" ("prostpectives") around.

How incredibly sweet! I'll tell Lee.

And Melissa, she and Emily have two classes together, a film class and a women's lit class.

That would be interesting. Lee's taking a film class, too.

jane

Mar 5 2004 5:08 pm

I basically have them now if I am not at work. I am enjoying the responsibility, however it does seem overwhelming at times.

I want to say, "What are you, NUTS?", but I'm told that that is distancing. How did you become responsible for these other people's children? . You are certainly not the only one go from hot young single babe to unpaid full time babysitter without understanding precisely how it happened. Welcome to the Cinderella In Reverse Club. I think five months is a new record, though.

You've got to regroup and reevaluate the situation. Because unless you looked at Joe and thought, "Wow, he is *cute*! Maybe he'll let me babysit his kids," this affair is not moving entirely in the direction you want it to.

Step out of the whirlwind for a minute, and think. What do you want to be doing? Where do you want this relationship to go?

jane

Mar 15 2004 7:59 pm

She just might know him a bit better than some of us knew our SO's when we took on the step-parenting role. ;-)

Kitten

I had known my DH for 24 years. It still came as a shock.

jane

Mar 02 2004 9:20 am

>Gore lost by 4 electoral votes.

And he's promised to do just that. The man campaigned damn hard in OH for Gore in 2000.

I do hate this idea that Nader lost the election for Gore. People voted for Nader because neither Gore nor Bush convinced them that they would represent their interests. And I'm not feeling the "anybody but Bush" argument this time. I'm glad Nader is running. I'm not sure that I can convince myself to vote for Kerry because I disagree with his political platform a little less than I do Bush's.

jane