Jane's Posts

Aug 29 2004 9:37 am

P1: The problem is that his boys are constantly saying that they wish that he would get back together with their mother.]

P2: Not at all unusual behavior. My SS latest permutation of this is he wants me and mom's boyfriend to get together and live in the apartment over the garage... He's 8.

My DH was so touched when Lee said she wanted him and her SM to live across the street from us. She was about the same age.

jane

Aug 14 2004 10:39 am

You guys are being so nice :-). I guess it's hard for me to imagine since the situation between the ex, MH and I are at such odds, that if I got an email like that I'd tell her to f*ck off and die EG.

Oh, good. I thought it was just me.

However, I think Nikki's idea is a good idea

Yeah, maybe, I don't know. I may be overly sensitive about this, but I cannot stand people trying to drag me into their relationships.

This is what I would do. I would email GF, and just GF, as follows: If you want to talk to me about my kid or my ex, call me. If you want to have a group meeting, say so. Do not carbon me on any messages to anyone else ever. Never blind carbon me, because if you did I would have to immediately disclose that to everyone else who received the message.

I'm sorry that you guys are having trouble hammering out your different neatness levels. I can commiserate.

jane

Aug 14 2004 10:50 am

I have a question for folks. If it were the GF posting here (and assuming that though everyone has their own views on a situation that it is basically as I've stated), what would you suggest to her?

I would suggest that she have a cleaning lady come in more often for the next few years. Or maybe that she should get over herself.

If the problem at your ex's house is that his GF isn't getting her own way on the neatness level in the home, then why isn't she working on that directly? Why isn't she just buying it for herself, either with cash to a cleaning lady or time and effort picking up after the others? See my point here? If you want something, buy it, don't badger other people to give it to you.

That said, the standard answer around here is: you have a marital problem masquerading as a step-parenting problem.

jane

Aug 15 2004 2:43 pm

If the problem at your ex's house is that his GF isn't getting her own way on the neatness level in the home, then why isn't she working on that directly? Why isn't she just buying it for herself, either with cash to a cleaning lady or time and effort picking up after the others? See my point here? If you want something, buy it, don't badger other people to give it to you.

I disagree, Jane. If someone else is making work for you, why should you go to the expense of paying more to your cleaning person (and I don't know about you, but my cleaning ladies *clean*, they don't pick up. They don't know where everything goes.) or doing the work yourself? A teenager is well able to pick up after herself, and it *is* disrespectful for her to be leaving things around after she's been told otherwise.
Vicki

I don't know where to begin with this. I guess we know whose daughter is home and whose is off with her father.

"Told otherwise," eh? If DD refused to pick up a specific soda can when you told her to, I could see your point. Cleaning up after herself is a different kettle of fish. Leaving things around is generally not a conscious act. Maybe sometimes someone somewhere thinks, "I'll just leave this can here; SM/BM will pick it up." IMVE it's far more likely to be procrastination combined with disinterest.

What you have is a household full of people with different neatness requirements or preferences. That's not disrepectful. They're different people. If GF cannot adjust the preferences of those around her, she should find ways to keep the house within her neatness level. I do not recommend banging her head against the wall of making a person with a higher mess tolerance level do the work. That requires persistent committed nagging; it means pointing out the specific differences between her level and DD's every time. What GF sees as DD making work for her, DD sees as GF making work for her: That pair of shoes in the middle of the living room floor is not messy to DD, and neither is the glass beside the kitchen sink. They're not disagreeing about who picks them up, but about whether they need to be picked up at all.

If you are going to impose your will regardless of the others' preferences, you have to be able to say, "We're all doing this my way, no matter what you want." Then you have to be able to answer the charge that you are the one being disrepectful.

I can hear the band tuning up for the "My House My Rules March" in the distance. It's hard to be the custodial stepparent of a teen. Your rules don't necessarily mean squat. The kid wants to be treated as an adult, and you have no desire to live with another adult. But the truth is it's really not GF's house any more than it is DD's. Her rules, her told otherwises are an expression of her preferences. Stating them does not automatically get her what she wants from the rest of the group. And if I were the teen SD, I can't see myself being particularly moved by her desire for a squeaky clean house. I'd be saying "I understand you want things picked up, I just don't understand why you're telling *me.*"

jane

Aug 22 2004 2:03 pm

I agree, but it still says that my preferences are OK to ignore. And, by the way, I'm *not* ignoring her preferences; in her private space, she can do as she likes, but in public space, which cannot be allowed to collect junk infinitely, that must be picked up sometime, she can't.

Fair enough, but concede that you are ignoring her preferences as far as public places go.

They're not disagreeing about who picks them up, but about whether they need to be picked up at all.

But they do, eventually. Sooner or later, you run out of clean socks if you just leave the dirty ones everywhere. You *have* to pick them up sooner or later. Dirty dishes left on the kitchen counter? No one can prepare food in a kitchen once a certain density of dirty dishes is reached. All of the bowls and pans are dirty, and there is no clean space to work in.

Right, sure. Sooner or later. That's the crux of it, though, isn't it? Do you pick up your sneakers every morning when you put them on your feet and walk out the door or when you come home and put them in your closet? Are you person who dirties every dish in the house and washes them all at once or a person who washes each dish as you go along? Do you like your clothes spread out around your room or tucked away in closets and drawers? Is your floor primarily for walking on or a flat surface for sorting and storage like your desk? Are your flat surfaces covered with things or all cleared off?

There are people of both types, and it's a mistake to attach values to it. You want your own way, or at least enough of your own way for life in your home to be comfortable and livable for you. If you want people on board to work as a team, don't alienate them by telling them that they are wrong for not wanting things the way you do. Keep in mind that they want a comfortable and livable place too, but that comfortable and livable for them is a different thing than it is to you.

The work has to get done. The question is who does it and when does it get done? My answer is that I should not be expected to do other people's picking up, and there is no defensible rationale behind waiting until the mess is a health or navigation hazard.

This is where you shoot yourself in the foot. Working out an arrangement that works for everyone in the house is hard enough without polarizing. You just took the first step into the "lazy, disorganized, self-centered slob vs. obsessive-compulsive, anal-retentive neat freak" war. You discounted the validity of the other person's preferences AND you played the "health" card. The argument may now focus on your defense: why exactly is a glass beside the sink a health hazard? Why are ten glasses beside the sink a health hazard? How are glasses beside the sink or in the sink different from glasses in the dishwasher? The only thing I can think of more likely to shut the other person off is invoking God in the argument.

If you stick to "we're different people with different preferences and different needs," there are options. I got rid of my dishes and used paper plates for years. Many people I know break the house into zones with different levels of neatness. I don't know what would work for your family or for OP's ex's. You could make dinner when the kitchen was clean enough for you to get around. Family members could take turns with the dishes or you could each take the chore you hate least or enjoy most. Once you take the position that you are right and the other person is wrong, the opportunity to resolve the problem is lost.

If you are going to impose your will regardless of the others' preferences, you have to be able to say, "We're all doing this my way, no matter what you want." Then you have to be able to answer the charge that you are the one being disrepectful.

Why is that disrespectful in a parent-child relationship? Or, really, in any cohabiting relationship. No one's saying "My way or the highway" but "We have a problem here" is different.

I can hear the band tuning up for the "My House My Rules March" in the distance.

It's a catchy tune, and really, why not "my house, my rules"?

You've lost me. My house my rules *is* my way or the highway.

And if I were the teen SD, I can't see myself being particularly moved by her desire for a squeaky clean house. I'd be saying "I understand you want things picked up, I just don't understand why you're telling *me.*"

And that would guarantee me blowing my stack.

No doubt. And that's where we started - with what I would say to the GF if she posted here. Your stack is blown, and I'm sick of listening to you bitch. If we have to live together, and it seems that GF and DD do, there has to be major adjustment of the whole approach to the problem.

jane

Aug 22 2004 2:28 pm

What you have is a household full of people with different neatness requirements or preferences. That's not disrepectful. They're different people.

Sometimes everyone needs to compromise a little, though, don't they?

Sometimes individual's requirements change and levels have to be adjusted, too.

Sometimes. My experience is that when you want everyone to compromise, you start off offering to compromise yourself. When you start off accusing the other person of doing things wrong, you are trying to get her to do things your way.

jane

Aug 23 2004 11:17 pm

In my house, it generally means that all the work around the house is mine. Period. If anyone else lifts a tiny finger, they're going out of their way. If I do everything, I'm only doing what's expected.

Vicki, your lips are saying, "no, no" but your actions are saying "yes, yes." When you mention the laundry, you accept responsibility for it. Same for the dishes, the garbage, the towels, etc.

Ignore it. Make dinner when the kitchen is clean enough. Move the laundry aside on the couch. Stop picking up after other people, and stop telling them when it's time to pick up after themselves. After the first couple of dozen "why are you telling me?"s, they'll start complaining to each other. It's time to let them have at it.

jane

Aug 24 2004 11:42 am

This will be a rant.

Sometimes everyone needs to compromise a little, though, don't they?

Sometimes individual's requirements change and levels have to be adjusted, too.

Sometimes. My experience is that when you want everyone to compromise, you start off offering to compromise yourself. When you start off accusing the other person of doing things wrong, you are trying to get her to do things your way.

Okay, but if someone does nothing except make mess and you've already lowered your standards somewhat to accommodate their mess, I don't think it unreasonable to expect them to raise theirs a little to accommodate your need for order and calm.

I'm searching for a nonhostile way to say this, because it really isn't about you. For some reason people who like/want/need things "organized" often don't seem to recognize how insulting they are being to those who do not. Your "does nothing but make a mess" and "lowered your standards" were like chalk on the blackboard to me.

I'm relatively Random. It does not please me to assign specific places to items in my life. I like/want/need to mix things up quite a bit. It creeps me out to see rooms looking the same all the time. I do like things in my kitchen assigned a place because when I'm cooking I don't want to take the time to find things. Even there, I cannot stand those tableware organizers; I want my utensils to mingle and get to know one another. And I cannot watch some of my dearest friends load a dishwasher, because the attention they pay to the placement of dirty dishes (which are always clean before they go in) just horrifies me.

I do not need things on the floor. I know people who do, but I don't. I do need things on any other flat surface. Not two candles sticks in the middle of the dining room table, but my keys, purse, recent mail, a dog toy, and an empty CD case. Bare flat surfaces unnerve me; I am compelled to disrupt that expanse. Couches don't need to contain a mountain of laundry for me, as long as there are a half dozen unmatched pillows strewn randomly around. It bothers me to have my bed made.

What bothers me most about this is that when I look around, I see people fairly evenly split on the Ordered/Random scale, but in this area, people I know and like and respect think nothing of blantantly putting down people who are different from themselves.

jane

Aug 24 2004 6:16 pm

I can hear the band tuning up for the "My House My Rules March" in the distance.
It's hard to be the custodial stepparent of a teen. Your rules don't necessarily mean squat. The kid wants to be treated as an adult, and you have no desire to live with another adult. But the truth is it's really not GF's house any more than it is DD's.

Sure it is. She is paying the mortgage. Or rent. If the house gets damaged, she/they will pay the price of that, either to a landlord, or through the lowered property value.

You made that up you know.

Still, it doesn't matter who pays, and you can be liable for lots of things you have no choice in. Paying for things and being liable for things does not give you the power to change the actions of your SKs.

It *is* my house, because I bought it! My daughter cannot (and will not) arrange to paint it lipstick red next week. My son needs permission to put holes in the walls to put up "spinning things".

Sheila, we're not talking about you and your kids. Well, you are. I was talking about stepparents.

GF is opting into a package: her boyfriend, his kids, his rules for his kids, and his parenting technique. She can want any level of neatness. What she'll get is what she, he, and the kids are willing to maintain.

These two women are in essentially the same situation. If DD wants clutter everywhere, she really can't stop GF from straightening things right and left all around her. If GF wants things neat as a pin, she really can't stop DD from distributing her belongings around the house. Both are limited by what Zip's ex will tolerate, of course, but that appears to be quite a bit on both sides.

I can see that GF could be frustrated. I was frustrated myself. But there's no point driving yourself crazy trying to change what you can't change or pretending things aren't what they are. Go ahead and clean what you want to clean. That's a sensible place to put your effort. Waging war with your cohabitants is not.

jane

Aug 25 2004 11:37 am

But the truth is it's really not GF's house any more than it is DD's.

Sure it is. She is paying the mortgage. Or rent. If the house gets damaged, she/they will pay the price of that, either to a landlord, or through the lowered property value.

You made that up you know.

Still, it doesn't matter who pays, and you can be liable for lots of things you have no choice in. Paying for things and being liable for things does not give you the power to change the actions of your SKs.

I truly have no idea what you are saying here.

Yeah, you do. Look at this:

I suppose it could be the case that the OP's ex has told the GF, "You are just a boarder here. This is *my* house. I'll pay the bills, and I retain all rights to the house and what goes on inside." In that case, yes, you are right. But, I'd say it is more likely that they see it as their house, their home.

That's pretty close to what I am saying. Regardless of who is paying what bill and what their legal rights are, they see it as *their home* - Ex's, GF's, DD's, and DS's. This isn't an arrangement like Cal's ex with his kids. Zip's kids aren't visiting their father's GF's house. It's their home, even if they have another home with Zip.

And, yes, by the mere virtue of being the one who pays for the house, and being the responsible adult, the ex and the GF do get to set the rule, at least IMO.

This has some significance to you that *I* don't understand. I don't see how who makes the rules or what those rules are affects the situation. One of the bases of the conflict is that Ex and GF don't agree. Even if they did, there would still be issues, but here - as in many of our families - GF is out there twisting in the wind because whatever whoever decides will happen, what actually happens bugs the shit out of her but not her mate.

GF is opting into a package: her boyfriend, his kids, his rules for his kids, and his parenting technique. She can want any level of neatness. What she'll get is what she, he, and the kids are willing to maintain.

Yes, that's what *all* of us get. But, I'd say that she has every right to keep on working toward it being her way, and the ex's way... not the kids' way.

Rights are just about as relevant as Rules here. They're distractions GF should avoid approaching the issue. Her rights and 5¢ will get her a nickel cigar. They certainly won't get her a tidy house.

Go ahead and clean what you want to clean. That's a sensible place to put your effort. Waging war with your cohabitants is not.

I'd say it depends on how important it is to you. I find it hard to imagine it ever being an area that I'd fight over, but then I'm a slob. However, I *can* imagine things I'd be willing to wage war over.

I can't understand why you would knowingly choose to make your home a war zone.

jane

Aug 26 2004 12:08 am

I can't understand why you would knowingly choose to make your home a war zone.

I would, for example, to keep abusive junkies out of my living room.

I used to think that way, once in precisely that situation. I look back now, and I can't imagine what I was thinking of. Why didn't the fact that the only way I could think of to keep junkies out my living room was to turn my house into a war zone clue me in that I should move out? What was I thinking of?

But not over cleaning.

However, the price of just saying "OK, SD gets what she wants and I'll eat it for sake of peace" is simmering resentment and an eventual ulcer. I know something about this, trust me.

Well, I know quite a bit myself, which is why I say to focus on getting what you want. One can - and I'm guessing GF here has - become confused and start thinking that SD getting what she wants is what leaves you with that simmering resentment. SD getting what she wants is not the problem or even a problem. SD getting what she wants is A Good Thing.

GF getting what she wants would be a good thing, too. She should forget about SD and go for that.

jane

Aug 26 2004 12:18

You seem to think that just because it is the kids' home, that they get a say in how it is run. IMO, that isn't the way it is. It may be their *home*, but it is the ex and his GF's *house*.

Yeah, no. I think we're talking in different dimensions. Put all the "get a say," rights, rules, and your opinions about how things should be aside. I'm not talking about any of that. I'm talking about the way things actually are.

Rights are just about as relevant as Rules here. They're distractions GF should avoid approaching the issue. Her rights and 5¢ will get her a nickel cigar. They certainly won't get her a tidy house.

I bet they would if SDs on-the-floor belongings started finding their way to the trash bin (with fair warning, of course).

Is this a joke? I don't want to respond seriously if you're being humorous, but I can't tell.

jane

Aug 26 2004 9:28 am

Rebecca, I don't know that I've ever disagreed so thoroughly with a post. I completely disagree with every sentence from here

theoretically at least, the ex has chosen her for his life partner. Irrespective of who actually owns the house, and who may or may not be paying the bills, the two adults are a unit. She is not a child, and that automatically entitles her to be more directive in how the home is kept. To make her a peer with the daughter simply on a financial basis is fairly offensive.

... to here. Although, to be fair, I agree with part of one sentence; that GF is not a child.

And then I agree with your conclusion:

Um, hey. It's their problem, it's their house. Your daughter needs to cope with the differences between the homes,

jane

Aug 28 2004 11:55 am

Vicki, I just cannot respond to this in one post. I have to distinguish among Zip, you, me and People In General. I have to answer in chunks.

SD wants the freedom to just do what she wants and not think about anyone else.

This is making me nuts. Is it just me? Do we commonly randomly make shit up in threads like this?

Sheila's making up finances. Rebecca is inventing GF and Ex's relationship. And now you come up with this as SD's desire and motivation. Zip hasn't said *any* of these things. How did you come up with this from SD isn't the neatest person in the world and she doesn't particularly care for GF?

jane

Aug 28 2004 12:00 pm

Response 2

I used to think that way, once in precisely that situation. I look back now, and I can't imagine what I was thinking of. Why didn't the fact that the only way I could think of to keep junkies out my living room was to turn my house into a war zone clue me in that I should move out? What was I thinking of?

Maybe you were thinking that you didn't want to be driven out of your home?

Sure, maybe, but that makes no sense. My home is where I am. If anything I was being driven out of a house, a house that I obviously shouldn't have been trying to stay in anyway.

jane

Aug 28 2004 2:13 pm

Response 3A

Well, I know quite a bit myself, which is why I say to focus on getting what you want. One can - and I'm guessing GF here has - become confused and start thinking that SD getting what she wants is what leaves you with that simmering resentment. SD getting what she wants is not the problem or even a problem. SD getting what she wants is A Good Thing.

GF getting what she wants would be a good thing, too. She should forget about SD and go for that.

It depends on what GF really wants. If she wants a clean house, period, no conditions, well then yes, she can pick up after her SD and the problem is solved. But if (as is the case in my house and probably a lot of other houses here) what she *really* wants is some indication that she isn't *just* an unpaid cleaning lady and cook to the family, if what she wants is some confirmation that her wants and needs count too, if what she wants is to not just be the invisible maid,

Do you remember that Lenny Bruce "thank you, masked man" skit?

Never mind. You know those "don't bother to thank me" people? They're always doing stuff you didn't ask them to do or particularly want them to do and then telling you not to thank them to make sure you know that you owe them? I stay away from those people because for me there is no positive side to associating with them.

You're sort of reminding me of them here, because I know I'm not supposed to say, "Of course you don't feel that they appreciate what you do: They don't. You *are* just an unpaid cook and cleaning lady (although no one understands why you choose to be), and your feelings about housework really *don't* count."

See, that's why I can't deal with the DBTTM people. If I do say that, I realize that it isn't entirely what I really mean. Still, it has to be said if anything is going to be, because I have that problem with being backed into a position I don't believe in. It is So Incredibly Annoying to realize that to avoid being backed in I have instead dived head first into position I don't believe in. After almost half a century the best solution I have come up with is to feign deafness and walk away. If I were a person in your home and I did that, I think that would drive you nuts too.

Of course you aren't "just" an unpaid cleaning lady. You are a friend, lover, raconteur, confidante, et a million other wonderful things that people in your home actually do appreciate you for. And your feelings matter as much as anyone else's.

I can accept that you have feelings of dissatisfaction, and I hope you work them through. If you want my advice, just ask. I'm willing to discuss these feelings just like I'll discuss your feelings about work, aging, friends, menopause, global socioeconomic change, and your quest for the meaning of life. Start your sentences with "I feel..." and we'll be fine. Like most people I have met, however, I am not so eager to accommodate another person's desire for a discussion of *my* feelings, behavior, attitude, and failings. And the conversation about you is not going to stray off into what I can do to solve your problem or how I can fix your feelings of whatever.

Which brings me to Reponse 3B

then SD getting what she wants is *not* a good thing.

[snip]

Sometimes what you want is to have your way *while others don't get theirs*.

As much as your feelings matter, these are not feelings that you can realistically expect others to have sympathy for. From the person whom you do not want to get what she wants, IMVE you can very, very rarely expect any sympathy at all. Shaolin monks, maybe. For the rest of us, you had better back off and work these feeling through without engaging us. Pedicure, couple of visits to a shrink, night out with the girls, whatever it takes. But if you steam ahead in this frame of mind, you will very likely alienate those around you and diminish your chance of resolving your problem.

jane

Aug 28 2004 3:27 pm

You seem to think that just because it is the kids' home, that they get a say in how it is run. IMO, that isn't the way it is. It may be their *home*, but it is the ex and his GF's *house*.

Yeah, no. I think we're talking in different dimensions. Put all the "get a say," rights, rules, and your opinions about how things should be aside. I'm not talking about any of that. I'm talking about the way things actually are.

So am I. You don't think those things are important. I do.

I didn't say that. I didn't mean that.

That's okay, but just because *you* don't think those things are relevant, and they wouldn't be relevant in the way you approach it, it doesn't mean they aren't relevant to me, if I were to encounter this. It is because of these things that certain options would not be viable for me, so, yes, they do figure into the equation.

This is what I mean about different dimensions. It's not that these issues have no meaning. They just have no determining effect on how things play out. What it all comes down to is what the players involved decide to do. You are one of them; the options you choose do affect the outcome - regardless of what rights or rules you have.

Rights are just about as relevant as Rules here. They're distractions GF should avoid approaching the issue. Her rights and 5¢ will get her a nickel cigar. They certainly won't get her a tidy house.

I bet they would if SDs on-the-floor belongings started finding their way to the trash bin (with fair warning, of course).

Is this a joke? I don't want to respond seriously if you're being humorous, but I can't tell.

Not really a joke. As I said, I can't see myself getting that upset about this particular issue, but if I were the type of person that I mentioned before, where chaos in their surroundings caused them significant distress, I could see them putting the belongings in a place where they couldn't be gotten to, or throwing them away, again, after ample warning.

I don't see much chance of GF throwing things out leading to a clean house. This sort of behavior can get very, very ugly very, very quickly. My understanding was that there was an extensive list of items in GF's email. Do you see her as throwing them out without ramifications? I don't know how much destruction of property Ex or SD would put up with. I can't see Zip tolerating a lot; IIRC she was upset about something - a pair of shoes? - being left outside where they could be damaged.

I don't really know how much I would put up with. If GF could throw out whatever dishes and towels and things of her own she wanted. I wouldn't haul her butt into court over a pair of socks, either. I guess I would leave it up to Lee to decide. I would advise her to give her father the opportunity to replace things before she did anything, too, assuming nothing irreplaceable, like her photographs, was involved. Even then, I'd give her my perspective on turning your home into a war zone.

Of course it could play out one way or another. Ex might throw GF out; then she'd be living in her own place that she could keep as she liked. SD could stop going to her father's; maybe GF could keep the place neat without her. Ex might step up and hire a cleaning lady that neatens up to come after the kids leave. But the first probably isn't what GF is shooting for; the second would leave a serious burden on her relationship with Ex; and the last she could probably effect without destroying anyone else's property.

jane

Aug 28 2004 9:55 pm


SD wants the freedom to just do what she wants and not think about anyone else.

And now you come up with this as SD's desire and motivation.

Because what she's being asked to do has no value to her, and she doesn't want to do it.

You're making this up, too, you know

So she doesn't. How does this *not* translate into "wanting to do what she wants" and "not having to think about anyone else"?

... and I'm not seeing the connection anyway.

I assume she leaves things around because she wants to, not because some malign force is making her.

That's a possibility. I don't think it's likely, but it's not a ludicrous assumption. For the record, my best guess is that she doesn't see this as "leaving things around" at all and that sneakers on the living room floor are no more "left around" to her than sneakers on the closet floor.

In any event, we don't know this young woman or what's going on in her head and there are myriad possibilities, so assumptions like this are out of line.

The same with thinking about other people. "My SM wants me to put this plate in the dishwasher. I know that because she bugs me about it all the time. But what she wants really isn't relevant to me, to think about it just makes my life harder, so I'm going to leave it here on the counter anyway." How else is this to be understood?

That I think may be verging on ludicrous, but maybe it's just too far outside my experience. In my case, in my home, I know that no one is thinking that way. I know by the blankness of the look when I mention the subject.

In my house plates and cups cease to exist as soon as food and beverage is consumed. Really. Neither DH nor Lee are capable of seeing them anymore. They can lift them up to look underneath them, move them aside to make room for their feet, shift them - I kid you not - onto the floor or the arm of the chair to make room for what they are doing, but they are completely oblivious to them. If you told them they did those things, they would have no recollection of it. If you showed them a movie of themselves, they wouldn't notice the plates in the movie either.

To be fair both DH and Lee do notice dishes in the sink and on the counter. If I collect them from around the house, they will rinse them and run the dishwasher and even put them away. Laundry, however, is a totally lost cause. They do not see clothes on the couch unless they are looking for that particular item, and lee, bless her heart, not even then. I just shift them into baskets and move the baskets into the bedrooms.

Also, I don't think that it is likely that Zip's daughter associates the bitching with leaving things around. More likely she associates it with her father's GF being in a bad mood (acute cause) and pretty fucked up over the neatness thing (chronic cause). The dishes, sweatshirts, sneakers don't make anyone else bitch; so they can't be what is making GF bitch all the time. She's just looking for something to bitch about and using this as an excuse. That's how Lee and Ty and I would be thinking about it at 16.

jane

Aug 07 2004 5:49 pm

I feel like she's attached to me with a Bungee cord. It's the weirdest thing, and not at all what I was expecting.
Liz

I remember that. It was like there was another, invisible umbilical cord that only I knew about. Other people all seemed to think that we were separated at birth, but we weren't, we were still connected. I think that goes on until she's about 23. The cord just keeps getting longer and longer.

jane

Aug 05 2004 11:17 am

[It is pronounced "fort."]

I thought either way was fine?

Not at my house, but in general, yes.

jane