Jane's Posts

Apr 27 2004 9:46 am

I wondered if he sent him some of his cds whether that might be something which prompted them to be intrigued.

Nooooooooooooooooooooo!

So far I like the idea of writing occasional letters about what is going on best. That works for me because it leaves the option of response open but does not demand one. Also, if I were Barclay, I'd make sure they could find me. Does he have a listed phone number? If he googles himself, does it lead to current contact information?

Here divorce records are public. The kids can look them up if that's what they're interested in. The oldest one, the one he's contacting, no doubt remembers quite a bit anyway.

If I were the kid, I think I'd be wondering why now, after all these years. I don't know what the answer is, but if I were Barclay, I'd want to be clear on that. BS on that would make me cut him off at the knees.

Incidentally, is he prepared to be a grandfather?

jane

Apr 24 2004 1:56 pm

Lost that other message, about Lee. What's she doing, swearing at you?
Anne

Okay, you know about the trip. For the rest of you, Lee and some of her friends have been planning a 2 week college tour this summer. I thought it was a fabulous idea, but it's on her father's time, so I didn't even consider giving her permission. And she never actually asked me. One of the other girls appears also to have neglected that detail, and now they're scrambling in the face of an irate parent vacillating between demanding either to go with them and forbidding her daughter to go at all.

Well, yesterday, I couldn't get in touch with Lee for hours, as she didn't have her phone. Friends A, B, and C were not answering their phones. No one was answering at FriendA's house, where another of Lee's friends said they all were working on a proposal to appease all parents. Then DH came home and metioned that Lee was staying over FriendA's house. He hadn't given her permission; he had just asked her why she had a tooth brush. I don't remember giving her permission, but I could have. I would have.

When she finally called me around 7, I was pissed and she was snippy. DH and SIL said they were fascinated watching my face turn from white to pink to red. I ended up in one of those conversations I hate, detest, loathe, abhor, and despise:

Lee: What well else do you want me to say?
Me: I want you to assure me it won't happen again.
Lee: Fine, it won't happen again.
Me: I'm not feeling assured, Lee.
Lee: Well, what else do you want me to say?
Me: I want you to agree to give me ten bucks every time I can't reach you on the phone.
Lee: I'm not working.
Me: Not my problem.
Lee: Fine, Mom, I'll give you ten bucks.

So, what's the phrase going around? "How did I get here?"

jane

Apr 24 2004 11:56 am

aw, damn, Jane, I am as always in awe of your ability to be right.
rebecca

Please call my daughter today. Please, Rebecca. You too, Melissa. Somehow, she's blind to my ability to be right.

jane

Apr 24 2004 5:14 pm

C'mon now Jane, if I had written that you'd have said "good for her for being blind to your ability to be right! She's doing just what she's *supposed* to be doing."
Deb R.

And of course I'd have been right.

It's worse than that, though, Deb. Would you please tell me that randomly and unpredictably swinging from grabbing her and holding on to pushing her out of the nest is what *I* am supposed to be doing?

jane

Apr 24 2004 6:12 pm

Well, but duh. Didn't you tell Vicki this exact thing at this time last year?
Anne

Really! Did I? You're not just saying that to make me feel better, are you?

Oh screw it, I'll google.

jane

Apr 24 2004 9:01 pm

It's the random and unpredictable swinging stuff that we need to get a grip on.

I'm telling you, Deb, it's driving me nuts. Did I mention crying in the supermarket yet?

jane

Apr 25 2004 10:03 am

Jane also says that people go crazy when their kids are about to leave the nest.
Love,
Melissa

Okay, here's a mystery then.

I remember once telling Kevin's SO that I loved ASSP because I couldn't figure out problems in my own life, I could only see issues clearly in other people's lives and then apply them to mine. She assured me that many many other people were the same way.

Now this thing here, where I know parents go crazy when their kids leave, and then I'm completely caught of guard when I go crazy... is that common too? Or is it just one of the many charming foibles that make me me?

jane

Apr 25 2004 11:07 am

She won't be once you've apologised for your anger and frustration and chances are if you're big enough to admit that you don't know how you got there then she'll admit her own mistakes.
Wendy

Completely true. In case anyone else finds herself in this position, all you really need is two cell phones. Call Anne R (apparently the Eurocrowd can substitute Wendy) on one. Then call your kid on the other, and repeat precisely what she says. Your kid replies, "That's okay, Mom. I didn't think you were being a bitch. I just didn't understand why you were upset." Then you hang up, sob over some mangos, and buy enough toothbrush heads to get her through college.

jane

Apr 25 2004 11:12 am

All that you can do is embrace the nuttiness,

I'm glad you said this. If this is what this stage is, then I want to make the most of it. So far all I can really get a clear handle on is the toothbrush heads. Oh, and bursting into tears. I am so nuts.

jane

Apr 25 2004 11:39 am

Or is it just going to hit me like a ton of bricks a few months down the line?
Cal~

I don't know, Cal. A week ago I was where you are. I was thinking that all those summers Lee had spent with her father had been prep. Then, I was picking Lee and a friend up from a college fair, and they started complaining about the mother who's having a hard time with the trip. I said, "But you guys, you're all about embracing the future and charging into your adult lives, and that's just where you *should* be. But for us, it's the death of our baby. Our baby is gone forever." And then I burst into tears.

Since then I've been completely irrational. Or emotional. I think I have more trouble with being an erupting volcano of conflicting emotions than most people do.

OMG! It's my High Growth Experience!

jane

Apr 26 2004 10:25 am

I hate saying this, but having my children move on towards adulthood releases me to a new life as well and it's one I look forward to. It was my choice, certainly but I've focused on them for so long I'm looking forward to the time when I can focus on ME for a change.

I still think and believe all that good for her/good for me/natural progression stuff. I feel interested and excited that this is a whole new stage of life for me. I'm planning what books to write and where to travel and all kinds of fun adventures.

What's killing me is the conflicting emotions swirling through me. I can intellectually trace them to forces and changes in my life. It doesn't bother me that I feel them.

What makes me crazy is that they make me act crazy. It's not just sobbing over mangos. I get very upset when I can't get Lee on her cell. Then I find out that she was studying for one of the innumerable approaching exams in her life, and that ****I**** forgot precisely when it was. I am wrong all the time lately.

I can handle that. It's not my favorite thing, but being wrong and apologizing is not outside my comfort zone. What scares me is what comes next. Like Vicki, I don't want to be a mother who drives her kids nuts, and my behavior lately would drive me nuts. And like Deb, I really miss being a part of my kid's life. How am I going to learn to be supportive of this kid as an adult when all these emotions keep tripping me up?

My mind tells me what it tells Vicki. You'll figure this out. You know how to be love and be supportive of adults. This huge change is really just another step along the path. Blah, blah, blah. But then my heart yells, "my baby is gone forever" and I start sobbing.

And yes, there is a good deal of guilt in admitting this.

My point is: Don't be surprised if it hits you like a ton of bricks, but don't confuse the craziness with caring about your kid. I don't know what the minimum possible torture of yourselves and each other is, but go for it.

jane

Apr 26 2004 10:34 am

And I hate to bring this up in case it sounds like a cop-out, but could it be a particularly cruel combination of kid(s) leaving the nest and (peri)menopause? Hormones and life changes on both ends of the spectrum?
Deb R.

Yes, definitely for me.

However, I was discussing this with a guy in his 70s the other day. He choked up when he talked about his oldest son going off to college 30 years ago. Then a woman friend whose first son went off when she was at this same double-bind age said that she kept waiting to feel emotional but never did.

My friend, who gets along great with her adult daughter now, said yesterday that she thought the transition was easier on her because her daughter was so ugly to her in the year or two before she left for college. I'm trying to figure out exactly how we figure out with our kids what form this dance will take.

jane

Apr 27 2004 11:04 am

Maybe you don't? Maybe this is one of those times when you get to see how much has been internalised? Lou and I seem to clash all the time at the moment, yet a few months ago I kept thinking how much easier it had become. Funnily enough, no matter how we clash she always takes the time to tell me she loves me, and that's years of me telling her the same. Maybe it's their turn to guide us through it?
Wendy

Yeah, but you know how I see these things. It's always the dynamic between the two people that catches my interest. I mean, sure Lee's guiding me to some extent, but not consciously. I do see that if we're fighting over cell phones, we're both choosing the cell phones as the place to hold on, push away, hold on, push away.

I finally talked to my best friend last night. She has been working on her thesis or having her own life or some other damned thing. She immediately, without missing a beat, said, "Jane, she's lucky to have you. She can handle you flipping out over cell phones as long as you support her in making her major decisions." Damn, she's good.

But that's what I'm thinking, that we all do the dance in the way that suits our relationship. Lee could choose school as a battleground by letting her grades drop. I could choose the road trip by lobbying her father not to let her go. That's just not convenient or emotionally satisfying or something for us.

jane

Apr 24 2004 10:50 am

I just wrote an extremely long reply to this. It was too hurtful and painful to post. All the time he's lost by removing himself from their lives, I could not care less about. What I do care about is how hurt they are by his allowing his wife to come between him and his children.

It pains me to know that my daughter is upstairs crying right now because while talking with her about something totally unrelated, something triggered a memory of the time her dad hit her in anger. All because while we were still BNing, he wasn't able to be with MH and that's where he wanted to be.

Regardless of whether my ex left me or not, my children would have been far better off if he'd have gotten involved with someone who at the very least can *tolerate* children, if not like them. His wife actively worked to alienate father and daughter. She succeeded quite nicely. And DD is the one paying a HUGE price for that. She *needs* her father now more than ever, but he's just not there for her anymore.
Cal~

You know, though, Cal. I've had this out with one of my SS's from the other side. IIRC I told him that even if it were true that his father was my puppet, his problem would still be that his father was a puppet, not that I didn't like SS.

Stuff like this comes up with Lee from time to time, like her father insisting they go to visit SM's family while Lee is with him. No matter what SM is lobbying for, I still it as an issue that Lee has to resolve with her father. And over the years they have.

What is SM's or even my ex's fault does not cause me to lose sleep no matter how much it hurts my kid. The biggest problem for me is always the knowledge that I chose this imperfect man/total idiot (depending on the severity of the transgression) as the father of my child. If she turned her anger on me, and said "this is YOUR fault. YOU got me into this. YOU made him my father" I wouldn't have a good comeback. I'd drag out the standard no one gets a perfect life and no one has perfect parents lines, but that wouldn't contradict her.

jane

Apr 24 2004 10:23 am

Am i wrong with any of this??

Oh, yeah! Most glaringly with:

So finally after this "last straw" ive convinced her of the need to get things legal. To have everything spelled out by CT state law so everyone knows thier place and acts accordingly.

Going to court isn't going to solve any of the problems you've mentioned. Going to court can do nothing to make BD less annoying or lazy or inflexible.

I consider not going to court one of the smartest moves I ever made in my parenting split. There's no court order for me to violate. My ex and I do whatever we think is right. We disagree from time to time, but we hash it out like married parents do. Not having the option of going into court for contempt keeps us reasonable. It requires us to behave as adults.

From what you've said, that's pretty much what your wife and her ex seem to be doing. If you think the strain of *that* is tough, tell her to do her complaining to her mother and just tell you she needs a foot rub. Because once court orders are involved, the ex will be doing the same annoying things and your wife will have the threat of him dragging her into court hanging her over her head all the time.

Right now, the ex's rights toward his child are tacit, presumed, potential. After your wife "makes things legal," he'll probably have joint legal and physical custody, more visitation than he has now, possibly less CS obligation. Your wife won't just be rolling her eyes as she hammers out pickup details, she'll probably have them written into a court order as her responsibility. If the day ever does come that little Jessica realizes her father is an ass and tells him so, your wife will still be bound to drop her at his door at the appointed time.

Custody trials are immensely time-consuming, stressful, expensive, and invasive. If you think you want one, you're wrong. This can go on for years, cost you tens (or hundreds) of thousands of dollars, and involve intense investigation of you and your wife's mental and physical health, marital relationship, home, finances, job situations, etc.

jane

May 05 2004 12:02 pm

She told him fine, meet you in one hour, then called me. I told her rather than futzing around, half an hour from home, for another hour or more, she should come home. Then she should call him and have him drop her off at home. Well DW sort of made a fuss about it, but if you dont make a stand hell walk all over her. Our dinner plans were now screwed up (530 to a 630 pickup), and he does it all the time. He is never ever ontime always at least 15-20 late but usually more.

Well BD didnt like that, all a sudden he couldnt garuntee that SD would be home by the newly agreed upon time. He started heeing and hawing about having to come all the way down to drop SD off.

Well im sorry, you decided to stay late and be out of town all day.

Look, you've got to figure out how to stay out of this stuff. They were FINE until you put your 2 cents in. The kids's parents figured out a way to handle the situation. Then you, you, you made it into a drama.

He called waaay late in the day to metnion he was going to be late, then expects us to go out of our way for his choices!

I'm not seeing the "us" here. If your DW had called you to tell you that you were to wait around an hour, I could see your annoyance. You would have been fine with me if you refused that.

Why exactly did your wife call? Did she ask you for advice on handling the situation? Because if she did, you might want to ask her not to; you're coming off as the bad guy. If she just called to say that she'd be late, the correct response was, "Okay, honey, I love you. See you when you get home."

And yes, I am saying that you're supposed to sit by and do nothing while that asshole jerks your wife around and disrupts your evening plans.

Ok i know im really whining again (its what i do best), but i truely think its not too much to ask that he come the extra 10 mins to drop her off at home.

No, it is not too much to ask. It was a perfectly reasonable request. However, he refused that request. He can do that. He can do all kinds of stuff that you don't want him to. He can show up late or not at all; he can argue with DW; he can badmouth you to the kids; he can pay CS when it's convenient for him.

This really is the meat and potatoes of this group, you know. People come frustrated and steaming and hang around for a couple of years until they either let it go or leave their mates. You cannot define the relationship between your mate and her ex. You cannot make them act the way you want them to.

Sure, it's frustrating. Come and vent. But eventually you might want to stop banging your head against that wall too.

jane

May 05 2004 9:41 pm

The problem is that it's the ex-husband who's continuously late, not the wife. So, to leave without her seems unnecessarily aggressive. There's an element of "Your concerns don't concern me; I don't care how hard this might be for you, all I want is not to be bothered."

I'm not sure I have a problem with that. But my problems, my family's problems, have always centered more on "Your concerns are my concerns; I don't care how hard this might be for you, just make things right."

DW has commitments that make planning for switch nights problematic for her. I don't see anything wrong with OP just making plans for switch nights that don't include his DW. In fact, I encourage him to do so.

DH's ex isn't consistently late, but she's consistently other things. I handle it with the equivalent of going to dinner with friends. It makes much easier to be supportive. If I were caught up in the inconvenience, I could not stop my mind from thinking, "this wouldn't happen, if you'd just..." If I plan around it, I don't feel frustrated, and I can say, "I'm sorry, honey; you must be disappointed."

jane

May 06 2004 10:52 am

Okay, I'm getting what is bugging me. I am hearing people saying that OP shouldn't go out and have a good time because DW can't.

That's not what *I'm* saying, and not what others are saying either, I think. My point was that it's wrong to put the wife on the spot when either choice she makes is wrong. They have plans immediately after the drop-off. The drop-off happens late because the biodad is late.

This is the kind of argument that I work to avoid. DH says "but we agreed to do X after the drop-off," and I counter with "No, we had plans to do X at 5:30."

So the husband huffs off to the restaurant alone, leaving the wife alone in a dark parking lot, and then coming home to an empty house, and he gets to eat alone.

Right. Works for me. I'm not sure that was OP's situation. I'm not getting all the posts. But sure. If they planned dinner at 6, and DW can't make it, by all means huff off, catch those reservations, eat lobster.

I'm sorry but the dark parking lot is DW's problem. She's a big girl. She can decide to sit there if she wants. OP isn't *making* either choice wrong. Both choices have pros and cons. Don't blame him for it.

Far better to plan the dinner out for a time that biodad's lateness can't affect it. Or plan ahead; "I'm going out with Bob to watch the game at Bathtub Billy's because the evening will be all up in the air, since we don't know what time Biodad will drop SD off."

That's fine too. It's not far better for everyone than "fine, I'll go without you," but it's definitely a technique that OP and DW should consider employing.

What he shouldn't do is wait until his wife has no good choices (abandon the drop-off and try to control biodad's behavior that way, or disappoint her husband and be there when the child gets dropped off) and then throw down an ultimatum.

I love this part of the argument. IMVE when people set limits for those around them, they are often accused of issuing ultimatums. I agree that OP and DW should hammer this out ahead of time some and nail down whether they're talking about 6 or "after the switch" and who's going to do what if something comes up.

I just don't see it as less of an ultimatum if he says today that next time this happens he's going without her than it is if he says it at the last minute. Sometimes his wife will have no good choices. Whether they address that now or later, he's still got to draw the line somewhere.

Sexist it may be, but if OP were a woman I'd be telling him to schedule pedicures for switch night.

That would be fine. It's having mom stretched between picking up her kid *or* going out with her husband, and forcing her to choose.

But she's just going to be sometimes. Her situation unavoidably involves being stretched and having to make unpleasant choices. We're all agreed on anticipating. But don't put the burden on OP to adjust when something unanticipated comes up.

jane

May 07 2004 9:59 am

By "punishing parent" I was really responding to a couple of suggestions that the OP go ahead out to dinner without his wife when she's held up by her ex's change in drop-off/pick-up times.

Okay, I know there is stuff I'm not seeing.

The suggestion was that he do this to more or less teach her a lesson, and after a couple of times she wouldn't hold up their plans again. I don't think this approach is relationship-friendly.

But when you lay it out like this, I still don't see what the problem is. Of course she won't hold up their plans anymore. She can't. She cannot hold up *his* plans unless he lets her, and I think he needs to see and accept that. Somehow, you've ended up in Don't-Jerk-Me-Around-To-Get-What-You-Want-You-Passive-Aggressive-Assholeville and I'm over in You-Teach-People-How-To-Treat-Youville.

Just don't plan a dinner date with your spouse at 5:00 sharp and go without her when her ex holds her up. That's setting up hard feelings and adding to frustration all around.

Again, I don't see the problem. Honestly. I do just that *all the time.* It's not just needing to eat regularly; being late is stressful for me. Some things you can juggle, but there's an ocean of activities that begin at a fixed time. If I'm participating in those activities, then I'm going to be there at that fixed time. I show up on time. That's who I am; that's what I do.

Granted, my leaving on time without people has caused some hard feelings over the years. However, if I don't leave on time, and I show up after the beginning of a movie, or when the bride is walking down the aisle, or after everyone has jumped out and yelled "Surprise!" there are even more hard feelings. I'm mad at the other person for making me late, and even worse I'm mad at myself for letting the other person make me late.

We don't want me to be pissed off. We have learned to avoid that. One consequence of my leaving is that people tend to show up on time. Another is that we often go in separate cars. Another is that we're careful to communicate time constraints. Another is that I attend things alone and sometimes I miss them altogether. Ultimately, my need for punctuality is satisfied, though, and - this is the kicker - my getting my need satisfied requires nothing specific from the people who love me. They can show up on time or meet me later or not go - whatever suits their needs.

Oh, and nobody has to be *wrong.* That's big, too.

I think the big problem is that they're trying to go against nature-- nature being the tendency of the ex to be inconsistant about time, habitually late, uncaring about other people's plans. So, come up with something new, that's all.

What I see as the big problem is that OP is stuck on the idea that he has to change BD or DW to get what he needs.

I want to go have mad fun right now...

Yeah, lets.

jane

May 07 2004 11:18 am

Right. Works for me. I'm not sure that was OP's situation. I'm not getting all the posts. But sure. If they planned dinner at 6, and DW can't make it, by all means huff off, catch those reservations, eat lobster.

That only works if his objective was lobster. If his objective was a nice dinner with his wife, then he loses too.

Okay, but look. He's not going to get everything. We're all agreed, I think, that he should make the best of it. I'm fine with the options you've suggested. I am arguing that if you're going to make it his responsibility to make the best of it for himself - and I am - you've got to let him actually do that. If a nice dinner without DW is the best alternative for him then that's what he should do.

But drawing a line and issuing an ultimatum are two very different things. (Or different points on a continuum, how's that?) I can draw a line with DH about his daughter coming to stay with us in two ways. I can be threatening and punitive, or I can be collaborative and creative, and I can get the same outcome either way, in terms of what I will and will not do or accept. Which way is going to make my husband feel valued and motivated to do his part?

You can draw the line in one way: You can leave. That is your only option. Everything else is negotiation. Absolutely, there are more and less effective negotiating techniques. Yeah, collaboration! But the bottom line here, the place you go after deadlock, is divorce, just like trial is in your mediation sessions.

Of course, but even then, there can be guidelines. It's just wrong to make up two stark choices and present them over the cell phone when the wife calls to say that biodad is late. If the accepted coping strategy is "OK, I'll head to the restaurant and call you when I get there and we'll meet there if we can" then everyone knows what to expect. If it's "OK, but I'm going to dinner. I'm not waiting. See you when I see you." that puts unnecessary strain on the relationship.

I'm telling you, Vicki, it takes strain off my relationships. Nothing is required of me - nothing - regarding DH's ex. I am totally and completely rock solid certain that where I choose to accommodate, I do so for my own purposes. As far as I can tell, OP can't even begin to grasp that. He has no clue.

The first one is not a surprise and then the wife can decide that she really needs to address this with her ex, or that this works for her. The second one just makes her wrong, period, and that makes her defensive and angry, and that's not good for anyone.

I think your first marriage is informing your opinion here. I accept that there can be a punitive, demoralizing, demeaning dynamic involved when one person goes without the other. So OP, be warned: Here lies danger. I can't let you slide on the always, everyone, anyone part though, Vicki. My experience, which is forming my opinion here, is to the contrary. I personally don't see that the other person is *not* wrong until I do accept that it's her problem to deal with.

This is what's going on in my head: I picture myself as OP and you as DW. I love you, and I would love to spend the evening with you. I am disappointed that something has come up with your ex. You are disappointed too. Neither of us wants the evening to be worse. We both want the best possible outcome for ourselves and for each other. I'd like you to be more forceful with your ex, but that doesn't work for you, and I accept that. You would like me to wait and go whenever he shows up, but that doesn't work for me, and you accept that.

That mutual acceptance establishes trust that neither of us is turning our disappointment against the other. Also, I don't need to examine your ex's character or your assertiveness anymore, and you don't have to revisit my temporal inflexibility. Everything just is what it is, and that's what we're dealing with. My decision to go without you is not punishing you anymore than your decision to wait for the ex is punishing me. We're just loving each other and doing the best we can in a world fraught with peril and uncertainty. Now kiss me, and I'll bring you home something to go.

jane

May 08 2004 11:33 am

Then we are in agreement. I am responding to the suggestion that if he went to dinner without her a few times, she'd learn not to be late. It was a "teach her a lesson" kind of thing. You're not talking about teaching a lesson, but I was. And we both agree that that leads to trouble.

Right. Except that I'm still chewing on the lesson teaching. Stay with me a little; Anne has a newborn.

When I read OP's posts, I shake my head about how many lessons he's going to have to learn and how difficult they will be for him to learn. He reminds me of me when I first came. I so very much did not want to learn those things: I didn't want them to be true.

Geri's going to dinner is where everything gets tangled together for me. I don't see it as punitive, I don't think Geri meant it that way, and I don't see it as much of a danger for OP, but I believe that that kind of thing could done with punitive intent.

I know that you have to teach people lessons in all your relationships. It doesn't strike me as patronizing or demeaning because IMVE the person you are teaching is most often yourself. The lessons of leaving without whomever were important ones, but my friends and I really taught ourselves them. Those lessons were necessary to my learning the step-parenting lessons later.

Is this making sense? OP needs to learn to accept some unpleasant truths, like he cannot make Ex show up on time. I could never accept that kind of thing until I had learned that I didn't *need* Ex to show up on time. I think OP is like me; I don't think he's going to grasp that he can't control/change/force them until he sees that they can't control/change/force him.

Which brings me back to punitive intent. That process of taking responsibility for what you do control and letting go of what you don't can be painful and confusing. I personally tend to feel as though the other is punishing me. It hurts; she's doing it deliberately; she's being mean. When I'm the limit setter, I know that my motivation is not to hurt, but when I'm the limit settee, that's not immediately apparent. My decision to go in separate cars is obviously a wise move to avoid beginning the evening with waiting around and anxiety for me. When she decides to avoid beginning the evening with rushing around and anxiety for her by dining out with someone else, I feel rejected.

Okay, so pulling this all back to OP. He has to accept that DW's relationship with the ex is theirs, not his. I don't see him accepting that he can't manage it until he sees that he doesn't have to. Then he won't do things punitively, because he will feel no need to punish. Along the way to that point, though, I don't want him to worry about DW feeling punished too much. My friends, DH, and I have all felt punished and rejected along the way. DW has painful lessons to learn, too.

jane

May 11 2004 12:12 pm

I've always thought that being constantly late is a passive-aggressive power play. Just a subconscious way of saying, "Your time isn't as important as mine," or "Let's see how much you love me."
Anne

Yeah, that's what drives a lot of people nuts. It used to drive me nuts. Then I had a huge fight with one of my friends and I realized that I was crazy to be taking her time management issues personally. You know, if she had been late just with me and always with me maybe that conclusion would have made sense. But she was late for everything. It came up on all her performance evaluations at work. She missed things she really wanted to see. It was a huge problem for her. And I was making it unnecessarily worse by being pissed at her all the time.

So we made A Plan to accommodate my need to be on time and her inability to be on time. Really, we haven't had any problems with it in about 15 years.

jane

Apr 23 2004 11:09 am

>Thirst for revenge is good sometimes. It helps you get through things.

Until the judge doesn't rule your way.
Melissa

Thirst for revenge isn't a good thing no matter how the judge rules, though. It's always a distraction from the goal. That's why it always leaves ashes in your mouth. When you get it, you realize it wasn't what you wanted after all.

jane

Apr 24 2004 11:08 am

I am not feeling that kind of revenge. I mentioned that i was feeling *Sweet Revenge*. "Smug", "Cocky", "Told You So", "You Made The Bed", etc.

In other words, you are engaged in the war and just as shitty as she is for fighting in it.

I'm still reeling over Melissa's common sense remark. I've noticed lately that the older I get, the more I think about things one of my SsIL has said to me over the years. She just throws these lines away, over her shoulder while she's searching for pink clothes in discount stores, and I hear them years later.

When I read this thread, I hear her saying "Well, you become what you hate."

I'm going to call her and tell her I love her.

jane

Apr 23 2004 10:46 am

But why is demanding an unhypocritical life so troublesome?
Someone tell me I'm sane!!!

It's all relative. This isn't one of your sanest areas. The kid doesn't like you or trust you or something you enough to open up. He's keeping you at a distance. It's not something to lose sleep over; it's a common technique kids use to deal with their parents' divorces.

But if you're looking at him not mentioning that he doesn't like pasta as an "untruth" and you have compiled a long list of such transgressions, you're not providing an environment that is likely to lead him to open up more.

jane

Apr 23 2004 10:40 am

I'm beginning to resent my husband for having a daughter(young father-had her when he was 19)because we have to deal with this woman all the time. I have even sterted to compare myself to her. I am making my self depressed and physically sick over this. Does anyone have some insite on what I'm feeling?? How do I deal??? Help!!

Keep looking in that mirror. It makes people insane to think that they're like the evil ex. But really, we choose our mates for reasons. Our mates chose us and their exes for reasons. There are always similarities between us. It is extremely unpleasant to realize that what you hate about her is what you hate about you. But, there you go - that's life.

jane

Apr 24 2004 10:36 am

"Woman In Hormonal Rage Kills Overly Truthful Friend"
Anne

I am reassured by those 3000 miles and the fact that your swing is limited by the baby at your breast. Otherwise, I'd be relying on the chihuahua, the rat, and the cat to defend me.

jane

Apr 23 2004 4:20 am

For example, I've been telling DH all year that SD was going to start pulling shit the second the baby was born. The baby was born Sunday. So far this week we've had three skipped classes, a shrieking fight with DH, and a fainting fit. It's *Thursday*.

Isn't that supposed to be his cue to take her out for a special occasion, or just spend time with her, so that she doesn't feel she's losing in her competition with the baby?

Isn't that supposed to be the reaction of the five year old?
Anne

No! Lee's father was way worse than that.

jane

Apr 22 2004 11:10 am

we are not intentionally being asses

Just so you know - that's not coming through in your posts.

jane

Apr 22 2004 1:21 am

I would appreciate hearing from anyone on this group stories about 18-year-olds, girls in particular, making their own ways in the world.

K.

When I turned 18, I was in my 2nd semester of college. 7 Sisters. Dean's List.

It bothered me a lot that I had no clue what I should major in and also that I could not remember life without school. So, I dropped out of school, moved to Hollywood, and got a job at an insurance company. It was a lot of fun.

My father didn't speak to me for years, but I didn't really care because I knew that if he were speaking to me he would be telling me everything I was doing wrong. Eventually, LA and the insurance company gig got old, and I went back to college.

jane

Apr 22 2004 1:41 am

I think as parents we owe it to our children to help them into a place where they have a chance of making it, and they don't always get there at age 18--that's pretty young still.

This is such a foreign concept to me. I left home when I was 16. I look at Lee, and I'd miss her if she left now, but I'd be confident that she'd be fine. Really, I see the next year or two as gravy.

We all have our own pace for growing up and if I were your DH, I'd leave a good safety net in place while still allowing his daughter to make some of her life choices, decisions and mistakes.

I'm with you on that.

jane

Apr 22 2004 9:06 am

Is she hanging around with drinkers and druggies? Has she been caught with pot? Is she having sex with her boyfriend after school in his empty house?

Yes, no, no. I'm sure some of Lee's friends drink and smoke pot. I can't really drum up all that much concern. After all, some of my friends drink and smoke pot. Some of her relatives drink and smoke pot. Some of her teachers drink and smoke pot. It doesn't make my heart race. Nor does sex.

And where do 16-year-olds live? They can't sign leases, and flipping burgers won't pay for an apartment anyway, not if they want to eat, too.

You know, I think they can sign leases. Realistically, finding a lessor who'll rent to them is difficult. IME they live in roommate situations with teens over 18. Flipping burgers won't pay for much, but it will support a single young person.

jane

Apr 22 2004 9:50 am

I don't know. I hope my kids don't make the same choices I made. I don't want my kids, at age 33, to be sitting at home wondering how much more they could have done to feel satisfied with life.

See, I don't think that has anything to do with the specifics of what you have done in your life. Whatever side of the fork you choose, you miss out on the other. By 40 (maybe you're precocious) you can't help feeling that you missed out on a whole totally different life. And you did. So did Julia Roberts.

If going over stuff and looking at the choices you made and their consequences helps you figure out what you want to add to or subtract from your life now, I'm all for it.

jane

Apr 22 2004 10:52 am

It puzzles me that she can't see that all of this is a consequence of her own behavior.

Does it help that I don't see it as a consequence of her own behavior either?

I don't want to come home from work to find her in bed with her boyfriend and joints still smoldering in ashtrays. I don't want to worry about her getting caught up in a raid at a party and being charged with possession just because she was there.

Vicki, I've been having a hard time figuring out what to say to you about this. Confronting the reality as you prepare yourself for the challenge is all well and good. I want to be supportive of your visualizing potential problems and beginning to solve them ahead of time. OTOH, I'm getting anxious waiting for you to stop borrowing trouble and slide into that confident acceptance that it will all work out find in the long run. I'm impatient for you to drop the reins here and accept the reality that huge chunks of what you're worried about is completely beyond your control.

See, I know that you'll be fine. Of course you don't want to walk into an orgy, but if you do, you'll handle it with grace and integrity. The party raid thing is just nuts. However, if it did happen, she'd be deported and you'd be off the hook.

I can support her in her choice of school tracks, her desire to have a paying job and her wanting to socialize. But her choices in so many other areas are not only immature, they're self-destructive and destructive of my home and potentially destructive of my own daughter.

You know the other thread about August going to court? Something she said reminded me of this. You can figure this out so that every eventuality is covered and you, DH, BM, GPs, and all the girls are totally clear on everything. You can negotiate an arrangement that everyone agrees on. I guarantee you will all be surprised and see things differently once you are living it. That's what I didn't understand when I went through this. That's what I wish someone could have explained to me.

Try to come at this with a little zen. Yes, there will be challenges for all of you, but those challenges are potential for growth and success. You will find many things that you cannot change, and they will help you see what you can change. And all that other zenny stuff. I keep telling Anne to look at this stuff as a high-growth experience, and she just swears at me. But really, if I skip into a year of discovery I do much better than when I psych myself up to fight a year of misery.

You can help this girl in a limited way. You'll figure out how. And it will be good for you. You will know yourself better and like yourself better when it is over. It's an adventure.

jane

Apr 22 2004 7:39 pm

This is such a foreign concept to me. I left home when I was 16. I look at Lee, and I'd miss her if she left now, but I'd be confident that she'd be fine. Really, I see the next year or two as gravy.

You know, Jane, I think there's a big difference in comparing your experiences and feelings about Lee with how Vicki is seeing the possibilities with her SD

Dammit, Tracey, that is so not fair! I was replying to Deb, who was parents and children not Vicki and her SD.

not talking about her and, formerly, with how I was viewing the possibilities of my SS coming to live with us a few months ago.

I don't follow this part.

I don't remember what all went on when your SD moved in with you guys a few years ago (she did, didn't she?) but, IIRC, you didn't really share a whole lot of what was going on with her and with you and your husband at that time either. What you did share (here on the newsgroup) seemed very vague and nebulous to me at the time.

This, however, is fair. I am not, and never have been, comfortable trashing a kid on the internet. However, Vicki probably knows more of the gritty details than anyone else in the world. She was there with me through thick and thin, saving my sanity, and talking me through it. As far as my marriage goes, I sometimes consider writing on my tombstone Vicki's famous words: You should have given him a grocery list.

Anyway, I'm not saying this to discount what you're saying, just pointing out that the idea of having a stepchild with the personality and background and patterns of behavior that Lee has coming to live with me wouldn't be very much more than a blip on my radar screen. It's a lot different when the history of the child is the history that Vicki has related.

Okay, well Lee, as much as I admire her, would drive some people here right batshit. I have nothing bad to say about her SM because whatever my disagreements with her may be, my child is still alive, which shows that she has behaved with remarkable forebearance and restraint over the years. I have no doubt Vicki to do a year of Lee standing on her head. My SD OTOH is probably the teen that Vicki is most thankful her SD is not.

jane

Apr 22 2004 8:09 pm

But it won't be as bad as I fear, I suppose, and I have to remind myself that it really *is* DH's problem, not mine.
Vicki

Not only that, there are positives here. I've been thinking about this. Your DH is a man in a million and all that. However, I'm looking forward to him getting to see life and the family from your perspective a little bit. For all these years you have been the divorced and remarried custodial parent. He's driven up to see the girls and has been duly canonized for it. But he's never dealt with the NCP or the day to day stress of balancing the kids and the mate, and all the zillion details of custodial parenting that you do. That's one of the reasons I'm so firm on the "his problem" part, because I want him to apprecoate the job you have been doing all these years.

In certain areas, the ones that don't pop immediately to mind, this is an experience that you couldn't buy with all the money in the world. I'm totally there with you about wanting to protect Laura. Remember the "get your sick ass away from my babies, you diseased mutant" thread?

However, Laura will have a different relationship with her SS than she otherwise would have. And Lee's relationship with Tyler is a more important thing in her life than I foresaw. Also, Laura is not just a second child, but second to the supernova that is Stevie. Now she'll see a side of being the first, best, and brightest.

I'm just saying, Vic, there are all kinds of good things about this that haven't started coming to mind yet. Maybe you'll end up paying SD to clean the house and cook dinner. Maybe she'll do the shopping, too. Maybe you'll love the parents of her friends.

This is, BTW, my version of a pep talk. Melissa informs me that I have to spell that out.

jane

Apr 23 2004 9:27 am

>Your pep talks almost always freak me the hell out.
>Melissa

I know, right? :-D
Anne

You guys make me laugh like no one else.

jane

Apr 23 2004 10:24 am

I apologize for getting you upset, jane.

Oh, no, I'm not upset. I'm spluttering in outrage.

Okay, it seems that here and when I was going through my (hysterical) posting when my SS wanted to move in with us there was a lot of things that you said that was based on your experiences with a child (or children) who were more or less basically on a good track

I don't really remember. For the record, my experience is: custodial with a teen SS and noncustodial with 5 teen SSs, both with 1 teen SD. And then Lee. And, of course, myself and other people I have known as teens - friends, nieces, nephews, cousins, etc.

When issues come up here, I generally cast my mind around for similar situations. Generally, I hit in several categories. The teens are the teens, after all.

Just noting that if you *have* dealt with a stepchild that consistently steps waaaayyyy over the boundaries, I don't know about it.

You just forget, Tracey. SD moved out maybe 4 years ago now. Think back to the 90s.

jane

Apr 15 2004 8:23 am

Any advice?

Stop reading her diary

jane

Apr 10 2004 7:31 pm

And finally, we're in active litigation, so I'm really not looking for advice that includes talking to BM. I'm looking for thoughts/suggestions on how to deal with the team sport/I made a commitment aspect of things with SS. I don't want to hammer him if his mom's an active problem. But I don't want to let him use that as an excuse, either, when it may be in part his responsibility. Make sense?
rebecca

We're opposite on the team sports thing. I think there are a billion other opportunities for learning about working as a team. And I think the commitment at your SS's age is primarily a parental one.

That said, what are you doing, Rebecca? The situation between DH and BM is about as bad as it gets. You've got to let the little shit go. Even if this is medium shit for you, you've got to let it go. Yes, she can obstruct. That's the way it is. You don't have to like it. You just have to accept it. Like snow. Think snow.

jane

Apr 08 2004 12:20 pm

>Well, it depends why he moved.

Well, but it really doesn't. What it depends on more than anything is the ability and willingness of the person who *didn't* move to shell out the money. If they're able and willing, great. If they're not willing or not able, then it's on the person who moved.

Oh, good. Things have been slow here, and I don't think we've had a good fight about this subject in years. We all know I moved. 3000 miles. What I'm not sure we've discussed is that my ex pays all transportation for Lee.

We didn't decide that as a policy matter. But their visitation was their business. I didn't want to be fighting with my ex about it. He has a life; the dates and arrival times should suit him. I can't read his mind, and I don't maintain his calendar. So he had to make the arrangements. I don't care if he makes plans 6 months in advance and pays $200 or the day before and pays $1200. I don't even know.

jane