Jane's Posts

Feb 25 2004 1:13 pm

I wonder how she's going to react when she finds out that Chewy now feels that makeup is inappropriate (rather than simply unnecessary, as he's felt as long as I've known him)
Kitten

Tell him he doesn't have to wear any then.
Wendy

but is going to leave the makeup guidelines to me.
Kitten

You don't have to, either.

What are you going to let her rebel on? What is she allowed to view differently from her parents? How does she get to experiment to find her own identity?

I think you're mean, too.
Wendy

Noooooooooooo.

Okay. I was thinking about the other Wendy talking to her SO about the lunches. I think what I like best about ASSP is that it gives me an outlet for talking about other people's parenting that helps me keep my mouth shut at home. For example, I don't think a single thing crosses his kids' lips that crosses my kid's lips. Tomatoes and peanut butter may be exceptions, and there is some variation among his kids, but he and I couldn't be futher apart on children's diets. The only thing we agree on is what annoyed Wendy, we refuse to argue with them about food.

So I was thinking how to say that to OP Wendy, that ASSP isn't a place that agrees with you or solves your problems, it's a place where you can get out all those things about parenting that your mate just doesn't want to hear. I didn't post any of that because the example I was stuck on was Kitten.

Kitten, are you looking to actually discuss this stuff? I can't imagine anything I'm less willing to do than participate in a "family date" with a male teen in musth. I don't know what your deal with makeup is, but I do know that your kids are at an age when "because that's our family (religion's) rule" is an inadequate response. I don't have anything against home schooling per se, but I'm afraid that you're micromanaging your kids' lives to the point where they can't help but explode. I'd explode now, never mind when I was a teen.

And you're losing it too. How could you get in a pissing match over nail polish? Mean is mean whether or not you were right about something else. You say you want your kids to talk about their feelings instead of acting out, but you get angry, defensive, and (judging by the makeup comment above) vindictive when they do.

jane

Feb 25 2004 1:46 pm

I don't know what your deal with makeup is, but I do know that your kids are at an age when "because that's our family (religion's) rule" is an inadequate response.

Why?

Because it's a nonanswer. It implies that you don't believe it is right. If you did believe it was right for some reason, you'd say, "because the reason for the rule."

jane

Feb 25 2004 1:57 pm

I don't think she'll slam out of the house after being disrespectful to her father again for a long while.

Yeah, I know, how she treats her father is out of my circle. But letting her get away with pissy disrespect toward anybody always backfires on me somehow.
Anne

You know, toots, they have enough trouble communicating without you blocking off what they do have.

jane

Feb 25 2004 2:11 pm

Something about it feels like the wrong approach to me--I can't quite put my finger on it.

How about the humiliating other people to get them to do what you want part?

I can see giving the other parent a "heads up" about what's going on, if you think it's necessary,

I agree, but I really hate doing this. You have to guess what they'll do to decide whether telling them is the right thing to do. If you know they'll beat their kid, you don't tell them. If you know they'll try to resolve it in a sensible way, you do. I wouldn't have said anything in your situation.

OTOH, one of Lee's friends' parents called me a couple of years ago and told me that she read in her daughter's journal that Lee was smoking crack or something. I knew Lee wasn't smoking crack, but I was touched that she screwed herself up to call. Of course I was horrified about her reading her daughter's journal.

I'm rambling. The problem with the heads up is that it's hard to be confident that you're doing right thing, when you have to deal with a parent who already doesn't know what is going on with her kid.

jane

Feb 26 2004 11:45 am

Kitten, are you looking to actually discuss this stuff? I can't imagine anything I'm less willing to do than participate in a "family date" with a male teen in musth.

Right off the top of my head, take care of a baby that they conceived because you left them alone too much

Them being alone does not lead to babies. Them having intercourse might. Of course, the risk of that can be significantly decreased with birth control.

Really, how are these people supposed to explore and come to terms with their sexuality? You may be no more ready than they are for the changes in their bodies, but you've all got to deal with it. Sticking your head in the sand about it does not make it go away until the kid is on his own.

I disagree. I think there are many things where "Are you kidding, my Mom would have a COW!" is a perfectly adequate reason to keep yourself out of trouble.

I don't know what you mean. You're not saying teens won't find sex attractive because their mothers aren't ready for it. What are you saying?

Mothers having cows is a fact of teen life. Everyone knows kids whose mothers have cows. I see a lot of sympathy among teens for chldren of cow-having mothers. In fact, remember what I was just saying to Deb about the head up? It's the cow-having parents that I hesitate to call.

What I'm saying is that if you are a teen making a decision, and your reasoning is "my mother would have a cow," your mother has become another bullshit thing you have to deal with. If the correct decision would lead to cow having, you've either got to do the wrong thing or deal with the cow having in some way.

Okay, I don't think nail polish is one of them, but I'm just saying. I'm not a big fan of micromanaging a teen, but my particular teen has been busy proving there are areas of her life that need micromanagement right now. (Academics being the top one.) I think teens are like toddlers, in that it's all about picking the battles you a) care about and b) think you can win.

Okay. I'll tell you something, though. It bothers me that it is so much about battles. I don't mean to sound like Pollyanna, but why isn't it about working together toward a shared goal? I don't see that Lee and I have radically different goals.

Besides, micromanagement doesn't work.

jane

Feb 26 2004 12:05 pm

I don't think that somebody telling your parents personal private stuff should necessarily be a consequence of every action. But I think the "personal humiliation" part of the original situation pales in comparison to the "I'm not helping you lie to your Mom and this is what happens when you try to manipulate me into doing that" lesson. Of all the things in the world, I hate being manipulated by my SD.

Okay, but that's your problem. Humiliating a child to ease your own psychological unease is a shitty thing for an adult to do.

Do you see what I'm saying? You have a problem with being manipulated. You are the one who has to figure out how to not be manipulated. It's hard. Deb had a hard time. We've all had trouble setting limits.

But what you're trying to say is, "I'm not helping you lie to your Mom, because that behavior on my part would not be acceptable by my standards." The "this is what happens when you try" part is fucked. It's not the wrong thing to do because you are capable of punishing or humiliating the other person. It's wrong because you value your integrity and you don't want to undermine the girl's relationship with her mother.

jane

Feb 26 2004 1:09 pm

But that's you and that's Lee. I know a 16 year old right now whose goals are to make all of her own decisions, at all times, to go where she wants when she wants with whomever she wants, to stay out all night, to be given the money and car to do these things, and to never ever have to communicate with an adult authority again, although living with family wouldn't be so bad if she weren't accountable. She says that she *is* an adult, and that following family rules doesn't make sense because she can take care of herself. The adults in her life should just let go and let her do what she wants.

I don't believe you, and I find your analysis demeaning. Those aren't her goals. I can understand *her* thinking they are, but not you thinking they are.

How do you work towards a shared goal when you don't have one?

Vicki! You're the pro at this. You are the ultimate discoverer of shared goals and developer of routes to achieve them.

My goal is to get her to the point where she can handle that kind of freedom, or at least be responsible for herself when she has it. And it's not now.

Okay, that's a start. You have a lot more. You both want you not to kill her. You both want her to be loved. You both want her to be happy. You both want her to have a vocation and avocation she enjoys. Damn, girl, you've got *skills* here! Pretend you're a client.

jane

Feb 26 2004 1:14 pm

If the kid doesn't believe the reason the parents give, such as the family religion, that "because my parents say so" is always there to fall back on.

What do you mean by "fall back on"?

I mean as a reason to give the ubiquitous peers who presumably will be questioning the kid about it. Blaming parents is always good and other kids usually understand.

Ahh. Middle school. That's not the age I'm talking about. I had no problem with Lee using me as an excuse when she was younger. Now, if she thinks something is wrong, she knows why she thinks it is wrong. We're in the years when "my mother thinks it's wrong" is met with "how do you know your mother is right?"

jane

Feb 26 2004 9:00 pm

But if my kid is sneaking around, lying and evading rules that I thought she was following, the person who brings it to my attention isn't undermining my relationship with my daughter, my daughter is.

I meant that dropping them off around the corner would be undermining.

She should be embarrassed not because she's been outed as a liar and a sneak, but because she was lying and sneaking. I see it as natural consequence.

No, no. She might be ashamed by the lying and sneaking, but the outing and embarassment are your introduction.

If my relationship with my daughter is based on lies and ignorance of what's really happening, *that's* what's fucked.

Right, but it's not, right?

jane

Feb 26 2004 9:35 pm

See, I'm remembering when I was a teenager and I can tell you that what *I* would have gotten out of this, if I were your son, isn't that it's not ok to disregard his GF's mother's wishes, it would have been that it's okay to disregard his GF's mother's wishes and sneak around behind her back as long as you don't have to actively participate in it.

I don't disagree. I'm okay with it, though. One aspect of supporting each other through the minefield that is the teens is dealing with parents. I'd lie to a parent about her kid in the right circumstances, and I very rarely bother to lie. So I figure Lee would too.

I'm not sure I would tell Deb's son that it was wrong for him to sneak around with his GF behind his mother's back. It might not be wise, if he plans a long term relationship. But GF's level of honesty with her mother is between them. It's not his business. At the point where he becomes complicit in the deception and hustles Deb for a ride it is, of course.

How is she supposed to parent her daughter if she doesn't know what's going on? What if the shoe is on the other foot? You see, for some reason, I kinda expect that when my child is at a friend's house and their parents *know* that I wouldn't approve of something my child is doing, they let me know about it. Even if they don't think it's a big deal. Even if they don't share the same beliefs. And, yeah, to a certain extent, I even expect them to actively enforce my beliefs and not passively ignore them being ignored.

I don't do that. At my house my rules apply. I know Lee's friends' parents probably want them to not swear, keep kosher, etc., but at this point, I don't even tell my own kid what to eat or how to talk. I'm certainly not going to get involved in other people's wranglings.

I have a two-pronged approach to this. First, I make sure that I basically know what's going on in my kid's life. And really I think you have to work pretty hard not to know. Second, I check out the other parents. If they have guns, Lee can't go there. If they allow teen drinking, or they leave their kids home when they go out of town, or I see them leering at teen girls, I factor it into my decision.

jane

Feb 26 2004 9:57 pm

Oh, Deb, come on! You hear her out, then

I wouldn't. Well, I probably would if she kept it under 25 words.

She brought your kid home,

This is the part that bugs me. She doesn't get to tell my kid when to come home. That's between me and my kid.
I hope I wouldn't let my anger at her presumption distract me from the matter at hand. I wouldn't want Lee to think being dragged home by Ms. Doe was a get out of trouble free card. At a minimum I wouldn't be inclined to attach much importance to the perspective of someone who would drag my kid up to my door like that. At worst "who the fuck do you think you are to..." would pop out before I could drag my kid inside and close the door.

jane

Feb 26 2004 10:34 pm

If she's humiliated in the process, I'm not sitting there going, "Oh goody, and SD was embarassed in front of all her friends too! Whoopie! I love it when I get a chance to embarass her!"

You know, I almost said that I didn't see what your mall story had to do with Kitten's proposition. But you were associating them, so I figured you must know.

If you're saying that the "what will happen" is that manipulative behavior won't have the desired effect, that's fine. I'm okay with unavoidable attendant embarassment, too. But if humiliating your kid is the goal, and that's what's going to happen whenever they do what you don't like, that's fucked.

To let her get away with this kind of thing is unacceptable by *my* standards and is harmful to *our* relationship. She's perfectly capable of understanding that, and cares about it. If the natural consequences of her actions are that she's embarassed, well, lesson learned. The "this is what happens when you try" part is the *point*. Actions have consequences, these are the consequences of yours. If you didn't like it, don't repeat the actions.

Okay, think about this. What action of yours was her lying a consequence of? What action do you have to not repeat in order for her to not lie?

I mean your argument is that if she does X, a negative consequence will ensue, and eventually she will learn not to do X. She will think "wow, this negative consequence was caused by my action, therefore I better not do that again." But when she lied to you, you didn't think "wow, this lie was caused by my action, therefore I better not do that again."

Some bad stuff we bring on ourselves, some just happens, some is fallout from other people's problems. It is not my experience that teens are adept at distinguishing among those. In fact, I don't know a single person of any age, intellence, or maturity level who can distinguish among the three impeccably. In this situation there was a combination of all three: She lied; you happened to talk to Chuck before pick up time; and manipulation is a hot button for you. I think that's pretty much how it always is.

jane

Feb 26 2004 10:48 pm

It would be "If you are planning on sleeping with your boyfriend, which is a really bad idea at your age, that we highly disapprove of for list of of reasons, then we will either take you to start on Depo shots, or get you a Norplant. We will get you condoms to prevent disease and you will use them. You will not be sleeping with your boyfriend in my house. Those things will happen if you want to continue to live here."

Did you ever see "Raising Victor Vargas"? It was a grandmother raising her three orphaned grandteens. When sex reared her head, GM told one that he was out of there, and marched him down to DYS. When the social worker told her she couldn't get rid of him, the poor woman looked so crushed.

I mean, what are you going to do if she boinks him on your sofa without BC? Spend $6K a month for boarding school? Let BM finally win?

jane

Feb 26 2004 10:58 pm

"It doesn't matter if I ever want to use the car (or insert any other privilege) again."

Lee doesn't like to hurt me. She does, of course, when it's necessary, but she avoids it when possible. That's how I treat her.

I'm being realistic here. I cannot keep her from walking out the front door anymore. If she doesn't take her car, one of her friends will pull up in 10 minutes. I could refuse to buy her tofu and organic eggs, but I want her to care about health and nutrition. She could flunk her classes to piss me off, but she wants to go to a good college. We work well as a team, and neither of us wants to lose that.

jane

Feb 26 2004 11:03 pm

Actually, I wasn't going there, but yeah, I bet a lot of this stuff is easier if you're dealing with an emotionally healthy teen with no deeply self-destructive needs. If you can watch your kid go out the door and not really worry about what's going to happen, a lot of these cans of worms never get opened.

Now wait just one second. Have we all forgotten how I came to this group? Is my SD no longer legendary?

jane

Feb 26 2004 11:19 pm

You and Jane were rebels.

Were? WTF?

They trusted me to follow their reasonable (to me) rules, and I did, and the thought of their disappointment if I did something against those rules was enough to keep me in line. ..... They weren't threats or mind games, though, to me.

Right, but Vicki, you're talking about disappointment. Melissa was responding to Geri's comments about public humiliation:

the knowledge that they could/would be more than willing to embarrass me in front of my friends and their families if I broke the right rules probably helped keep me in line. Just the possibility of public humiliation is an excellent tool -

jane

Feb 27 2004 11:50 am

Oops.

Vicki: She brought your kid home,
Jane: This is the part that bugs me. She doesn't get to tell my kid when to come home. That's between me and my kid.
Vicki: Except that your kid asked her for a ride home, knowing all the time she wasn't even supposed to be there.

That's not what happened. Her son asked his mother for a ride for my kid. BTW, I have no problem with her dropping my kid off at the front door.

I hope I wouldn't let my anger at her presumption distract me from the matter at hand.

Presumption. Giving your kid the ride home (that she asked for)

except that she didn't

from the place that you'd told the kid she wasn't supposed to be.

which is none of her business.

I don't see that as presumption. I see that as letting me know that my kid lied to me.

Well, Vicki, I already know my kid lies to me. Mostly, she doesn't mention things I would like to know. Trust is a delicate balance between people. Lee is careful to be honest enough to maintain my trust. I am too. But there are things that both of us choose to keep private, for the same reasons people do in any relationship.

And "Who the fuck are you to.." would be enough to make sure that if I saw Lee smoking crack and selling quickies on a corner, I wouldn't call you.

This is the part I don't get. How could Lee could be smoking crack and selling quickies on a corner without me knowing?

Lee and I talked about this a little last night. Asked what percent of Lee's life I know about, we both said 80%. Independently.

So figure I'm parenting 20% in the dark. That 20% takes work. I have to figure out everything that could be there and do my best to help her to cope with it. But I also look at the 80% I do know and extrapolate. I wouldn't drop dead from shock if Lee smoked a cigarette or drank a beer at a party. I might if she smoked cocaine or drove home drunk. Could she have sex? Yes. Could she be selling quickies on a corner? No.

But I don't understand why you'd want to be kept in the dark if your kid is deliberately disobeying a rule.

Remember, I'm okay with a phoned in heads up over something that seems serious. A little parent-to-parent support is fine. Call me, send a note, ask me to do lunch. Don't stage a little drama with me in a role I don't want to prove a point to your kid and mine, because I don't buy the moral of that story.

jane

Feb 27 2004 12:18 pm

I think the terms we're using here are lending a sense of hostility or overbearingness to teh situation though. Who's talking about dragging a kid to the door? Who's talking about marching?

I'm working from Kitten's:

I'd help them, alright. Right up to the girl's front door and into the house for a talk with her mom. Both kids would be involved in a discussion about respect and courtesy.

I'm not seeing an interpretation without overbearingness there. The hostility is mine.

I just can't picture a situation in which the other parent would say, "You should have dropped her off at the corner, mind your own business." Because if it was a big enough deal to make the rule in the first place, then I would assume the other parent cares about the situation.

Thank doesn't mean that she wants you to get involved or that she would handle it with a group confrontation. And you can trust me that no one is "helping" her kid into my house for a discussion about courtesy and respect.
Exploring the parameters of this, I don't think a call from her cell in the car or even her coming to the door to say that she was dropping my kid off would bother me.

jane

Feb 27 2004 2:04 pm

I'm getting the sense here that you think that the threat of losing a car or public embarrassment is the only way that we're proposing to keep kids in line. Where are you getting that?

I'm not. Not even with Geri.

All of the things you say there apply, I'm guessing pretty much with Geri's young SD and Anne's and my older kids. Of course, there's a lot of teamwork. My kids don't want to hurt me, I don't want to hurt them, how in the world could you think otherwise?

I don't think otherwise.

BUT, actions have consequences. Embarrassment is one of them, losing car privileges is another.

This I don't agree with. Well, I do, but not all the time. Blood stains on your jeans because you forgot to change your tampon is embarassment as a natural consequence. So is puking in public from excessive consumption of alcohol.

We embarass other people, including our children, from time to time. The truth is, I embarass my kid all the time, sometimes with glee. I showed the cashier at Whole Foods her report card, for example. I do not embarass or humiliate as a form of discipline or punishment, though.

What I really cannot stand, though, is being used as the tool of humiliation. When a husband makes his wife look stupid to control her that's bad, bad, bad. When he uses me as the audience for that humiliation, I get in trouble. I have the same problem with parents and children. More even, because the power differential is greater and also because I think that's how husbands grow up to think I'm going to sit through dinner with them humiliating their wives in front of everyone.

(OK, so her friend can come get her. That's a very different thing from having your own wheels.) I don't get your point, I guess. You can't be saying that older kids should never be discomfited when they break the rules, or that they shouldn't have rules. I know Lee has rules.

Yeah, no, yeah, no. I'm feeling that she's out of here in a heartbeat and we really have to move away from My Rules From Above. She OTOH still wants those bright lines, and she still finds not being allowed to do things useful.

This is really hard to explain. If Lee is facing a decision she doesn't feel competent to make, she shifts it to me. Say, for example, Lee's friend is having a sleepover at her house while her parents are out of town with their permission. Lee wants to go, but she has concerns. Maybe she thinks a bunch of kids with a keg will show up. Either she consults me on it as a hypothetical, or I get "clues."

Some of them must chafe at times, that's the nature of being a teen.

Last night I asked her in what area I could improve as a parent. She said in letting her do more things. I laughed. Because I am working with incomplete information, I always have a little insecurity that I'm giving her too free a rein.

If she breaks a rule, what happens?

Okay, this I know. We butt heads over using babelfish for foreign language homework. She thinks it's fine; I don't. I'm the holder of the internet. If I catch her using it inappropriately, she doesn't get to use it without supervision.

Last week, she didn't call me when she got to her friend's house (driving in the rain at night) and I told her that I didn't think I'd be comfortable letting her use the car for a week.

jane

Feb 27 2004 4:04 pm

However, if I went to the mall and found Laura with a bunch of her friends with a cigarette in her hand, do you think I'd wait until she got home to address it? I'll answer that. No, I wouldn't. She'd put it out right there and then and hear about why.

I hate dragging other people into conflict. I am the queen of "can I talk to you outside/in the other room/ in the kitchen/ over there?" With pretty much everyone, NTITOI.

Would she find that embarrassing? Likely. Is that *my* problem? No. She knows the rules about smoking.

Yeah, but bringing all your kids friends into your conflict with your kid about rules and smoking is a separate issue. Think about it. If I said I'd go up to Lee and shoot her or slap her or call her an idiot slut, you wouldn't be thinking "well, she knew the rules about smoking." You're responsible for the consequences you choose.

jane

Feb 27 2004 4:28 pm

I'm not seeing an interpretation without overbearingness there. The hostility is mine.

But why *are* you getting so hostile? I just don't get the big deal.
Anne

Oh, it's just wrong on so many levels. I resent the other parent's dragging me into her problems with her son. I'm annoyed by her butting into my relationship with my kid. I'm horrified that she'd think I'd agree to handle things with a group discussion in the living room. I don't like her demonstrating to my kid that you can't turn to adults for help. And I don't like her being mean to my kid.

You know, parenting is hard. Telling a parent something bad about her kid is a very delicate procedure. I know this, because I screw it up every time. IMVE, most parents do not welcome other people telling them what to do with their kids and they really, really don't want to hear that they are doing something wrong. So you have to deliver the information as factually as possible without judgment or drama or criticism of anyone. Because she does not want to hear you criticize her and she does not want to hear you criticize her kid.

jane

Feb 28 2004 6:07 am

Come on, Jane. Like anyone here is in the shoot, slap or 'idiot slut' camp.

My point is that what *you* do, whether it be embarassing her or humiliating her or denigrating her or treating her with the respect you would afford another, is not a consequence of *her* action.

jane

Feb 28 2004 10:16 am

My point is that what *you* do, whether it be embarassing her or humiliating her or denigrating her or treating her with the respect you would afford another, is not a consequence of *her* action.

But, just to bring me up to speed, if *your* words or actions hurt somebody's feelings or make them angry or whatever, that's on them and they should have known better. You don't take responsibility for that or change your behavior.

I am so lost. At least one of us is sleep-deprived here. You mean me you, right? Not one you?
Never mind. Let me start over. You know when you asked about the hostility? I'm very hostile to the suggestion that one person's behavior is the consequence of another's actions.

Causality is is a matter of philosphy. There is no answer to what something is the consequence, the result, of. Everything is interrelated. You said A because I said B because you said C at night because the computers at your job went down, and the cat died. The truth is none of us really know what's going to happen next, no matter what we do.

So I'm conceding right off that on some philosophical level I could say something that could "cause" someone to slap me. I don't care about that. What I'm interested in is who takes responsibility for the slap.
IME, attaching responsibility for the slap to the speaker instead of slapper is the hallmark of abuse. Because I'm sensitive to this issue, I have tried to make this distinction clear to my kid. I do not want to be telling her that, no, her husband does not beat her because she keeps messing up, he beats her because he's violent. So when she was young, I told her that no, she didn't hit Brandon because he called her "stupid," she hit him because she lost her temper. More recently, I've told her, "no, Mr. Doe, didn't call Debbie fat just because she ate one cookie, he called her fat because he's an asshole."

I'm not calling you an asshole. I'm not even saying that you were wrong to drag her from the mall. I'm just saying, SD owns the lie, you own the dragging from the mall, and you both should be very clear on that. See, it used to drive you crazy when BM made "I wouldn't slap you if you didn't..." remarks. I'm hearing, "I wouldn't embarrass you if you didn't..." now. IME that reasoning pattern makes her vulnerable to "I wouldn't beat/rape/humiliate you if you didn't..." in other relationships in her life. That's my experience, that that's how it works. You - you you not one you - want to avoid that.

jane

Feb 28 2004 10:29 am

It can be as simple as, "Sure I'll give you a ride." Then you drive up to the house and walk up to the front door. You explain to the other mom how you came to have her child in your car, apologize (in front of your child) for your child showing such disrespect to their household rules, then ask how the two of you can communicate better to keep it from happening in the future.

Kitten

I don't want you to do that to my kid. If you want to help her, help her. Talk about it, lend her a book, offer to talk to me. If she has decided that this is not the time to deal with me on this, do not compel or trick or deceive her to do things your way.

I don't want to communicate with you to keep this from happening in the future. I don't want her not seeing your son because she can't get away with it. I want her on board.

jane

Feb 28 2004 10:35 am

Jane, even in your example of asking Lee to leave the group and go somewhere else for a chat - that's embarrassment.

Right. Sometimes you can't avoid it. Just, you know, own it.

jane

Feb 28 2004 10:50 am

How about "You wouldn't be embarrassed if you didn't..."

It's just not in the facts. Lying did not embarrass her.

Embarrassment comes from inside the kid, it's not imposed, like a slap, from the outside. Shouldn't the kid be responsible for her own embarrassment, just like I should be responsibile for my own hurt feelings if you say something that I find hurtful?

Yeah, but no. It's all the kids' to deal with and work out in therapy later. What I'm saying is that humiliation functions like a slap within the dynamic of abuse.

jane

Feb 28 2004 2:22 pm

My son says his conscience makes him feel sick to his stomach. I'm happy about that.

Sheila

That gives me the creeps.

jane

Feb 28 2004 2:33 pm

My job, as I see it, is to prepare our children for living in the 'real world' and breaking the rules (or participating when someone else is breaking *their* rules) is not generally met with a 'Well, I don't believe you should do that and here's why. So, go ahead and keep doing it, but if someone else catches you, you're in trouble.'

Wait a second, I missed something. In the "real world" no one cares about Deb's son's GF's mother's rules. No one's going to mention him breaking them, and the most they would say is what you've written above.

How did the GF's mother end up setting rules for Deb's son in this? We're not talking about laws that we all accept as binding on our conduct as members of our society. We're talking about some beleaguered mother of a teen Worcester. She's not a maker of rules that I have to follow. I'm certainly not responsible for enforcing them. I don't see why my kid would be, either.

jane

Feb 28 2004 3:25 pm

who owns it then? is it the parent's fault for humiliating the kid, or does the kid own the embarassement then?

The parent is responsible for the verbal assault. The feelings are the kid's. That doesn't mean that she's responsible for them being there. She's responsible for what she does with them there, though.

and let's change the players slightly-it's husband and wife, and it's one of them screaming the same at the other...same questions...:)

Well, I've been wondering about this, too. I wonder whether people think it's more okay to humiliate children than it is to humiliate adults. Or do people just think it's okay to humiliate people as long as they're not the people. Or are they just okay with it all around.

I've seen people publicly berate their children, mates, friends, employees, etc. I'm wondering whether they're all the same people. If your employee comes back from lunch late *again*, do you call her into your office to talk about it, or take it up in front of everyone? If your DH forgets to drive your daughter to dance, do bring it up in front of his softball team, or after the game? If I blow you off for a movie and you run into me at the mall with a bunch of other people, do you tell me off in front of everyone or talk to me about it later?

jane

Feb 28 2004 3:29 pm

jane's asking about deliberate humiliation, and it came from somewhere that the kid got to own the humiliation no matter what...that's what i'm questioning...

Your feeling are your own. We all feel differently because we are different people. Only we can manage our feelings.

Regardless of what I actually feel, if you say something in order to cause me pain so that I will do what you want me to, then you are being abusive.

jane

Feb 28 2004 3:37 pm

The kid has a CONSCIENCE. Personally, I'm very proud of that...

Sure, I have a conscience, too. It doesn't make me sick to my stomach.
jane

Feb 28 2004 3:55 pm

Sure, I have a conscience, too. It doesn't make me sick to my stomach.

Mine does. I worry about the fact that I did something wrong. I feel the need to come clean and make amends. I get excess gastric juices due to all of this.

Jeez Louise! What the hell did you do? And if you thought it was wrong, why did you do it in the first place? My conscience doesn't keep me up at night, it keeps me from doing things that would keep me up at night.

Perfectly normal response, IMO.

We'll just agree to disagree on that, then.

jane

Feb 28 2004 8:35 pm

who owns it then? is it the parent's fault for humiliating the kid, or does the kid own the embarassement then?

The parent is responsible for the verbal assault. The feelings are the kid's. That doesn't mean that she's responsible for them being there. She's responsible for what she does with them there, though.

The *Verbal Assault?!* What in the ever-loving hell are you even *talking* about?!

I'm drawing a line here. If you want to know what I'm talking about, you can go back and read the post I replied to. It's hard for me, but I can see I have to be firm.

Well, let's see. If DH walked into the mall and saw me with my tongue down a biker's throat, I expect there would be some words right then and there. And come to think of it, if he saw me smoking, he might say something to me too, since it's something we've agreed I won't do.

And I'm trying to get to the place where it's all his fault if I'm humiliated because he caught me with a biker and had the nerve to say something about it, but I'm just not seeing it.

Okay, but I'm trying to narrow this down. What happens if you're with a bunch of friends? And instead of the biker, there are 20 bags of baby clothes even though you promised him you wouldn't blow your paycheck at the mall?

You're trying to compare the SM-SD relationship to a friend of spouse relationship there, and the parallel really doesn't hold up. If you're my kid, I get to make rules for you. If you break them, I get to be pissed.

I'm not really taking about being pissed. I'm talking about how you treat the other person when you're pissed.

jane

Feb 28 2004 8:50 pm

Well, since I try to avoid that feeling, neither do I. I'll experience it in smaller doses (like when I have a snippy tone with the kids, or when I curse at my DH in the midst of an argument), which consists of a hollowness in my stomach, and butterflies.

See, I don't think that's your conscience, but I don't want to get into a dictionary fight over it. Whatever you call it, it's a problem. It's not a good thing you want your kid to have. You don't want stuff eating your kid's guts out. You want him to figure out what the right thing to do is and do it. You want him to refuse to take the kids without seat belts.

If he makes a mistake, you want him to learn from it, atone, and be confident that he's a stronger person because of it. You want him to apologize for losing his temper and make note of what led up to it and watch for it in the future.

Stomach aches are not required for any of this. They're not part of the process.

jane

Feb 29 2004 1:27 pm

Okay, but if you're trying to narrow it down, compare comparable transgressions of rules/agreements. If SD spent all her money on clothes, I could care less. I would't expect my DH, who's not working at the moment, to say a word if I blow some money on something I want once in a while. There are like five things my SD could do to get me mad enough that I would feel the need to confront her right away. *That's* the kind of thing I'm trying to compare.

And this is just the kind of thing I'm saying you have to be careful about. Your SD could come away from these sentences with the idea that you think that how angry a person affects what behavior is acceptable towards her. Really.

For her, and for many teen girls, you've to lay out and reinforce that while anger may influence what you or she or her boyfriend *actually* does, it does not in any way change the acceptabilty of that behavior. If hitting, shouting, insulting, ridiculing, lying, etc are not okay, they are not okay when you are angry. No matter who you are or what the situation is. Teen boys probably even more NTITOI.

This has been a complicated thread with a lot of different issues and hypotheticals, and I've been a little sleep-deprived. But I'm not getting the clarity from you here that I think she needs to hear there. Like: I hate it when you lie and I am left in the position of having to choose between either allowing you to benefit from a lie or ruining your afternoon and embarrassing you and all your friends in the process.

I keep thinking about what Kathy said, and I agree. A single incident with the parent being pissed and the kid being embarrassed does constitute an abusive dynamic. OTOH, that is irrelevant when you're dealing with a kid who *has* grown up with the idea that it's okay to hurt people because you're angry. With that kid you're always choosing between reinforcing or undermining the idea that abuse is okay.

jane

Mar 01 2004 4:08 pm

Oh, yeah??? When I was that age, my parents knew all of the parents of my friends and would have had no compunction about calling them if they felt it warranted. I will undoubtedly be the same way.

I have some doubts. I only know about half Lee's parents friends. The rest I've never met or spoken to.
When Lee was younger, I came into contact with her friends' parents in one way or another. Drop her off or carpooling or making arrangements. So the parents I know I've known for a long time.

More recently there hasn't been the need for any of that. The parents aren't sitting around hoping you'll call, either. If you hunt them down and catch them when they're not at work or working out or shopping or grooming, they're usually busy cooking dinner or on the phone to a friend or something. When you get them, IME they're polite, but quick to resolve whatever you've called about and get back to their busy lives.

jane

Mar 04 2004 11:58 am

If truth be told, I'd rather have a kid who does some rebelling and challenging, yet can still come to me and talk. It gives me some hope for the future.
Deb R.

I don't know if I even think of this incident as rebelling. Your son is about Lee's age. I figure at this point she should be pretty clear on what I consider right and wrong. Her primary focus should be working on what she considers right and wrong.

We talk about issues like this stuff all the time. I'll probably talk to her about your issue tonight. But my role in the conversations is advisory. I can imagine situations where I would tell her what she *had* to do, like hitting a parked car, but her interactions with other people... I can't make those decisions for her.

I find this clash with your son interesting. One might say that he was rebelling and breaking your rule by asking you to drive them. I think he was requiring you to demonstrate how one sticks to one's guns *after* the decision on what is right and wrong. Whether or not it makes us uncomfortable, I think teens should be able to look to us for that. Because that is really, really hard to figure out, and now that they are figuring out what their morals are, putting them into practice is an even bigger challenge.

Did that make sense? I don't see this as rebellion. His message wasn't "I don't care what you think is right and wrong or what limits you set." It was, "Show me how to be strong and do what I think is right when someone I love is pressuring me not to." Of course, I wasn't there; I'm just going by what you said.

jane