Jane's Posts

Sep 01 1998 06:54

I think I have to speak up here. My stepkids have had something planned on every weekend they have been with us for two years now. We are never consulted in advance. We are just told where we have to be if we want to see the children. We can never make plans to go anywhere or do anything. Everytime we do, we have to cancel. If we say that we would like to do something else, BioMom paints us out to be the bad guys. I can understand your ex's frustration. Have you tried to see it from his point of view? He gets very limited time with his children and then he can't even plan that time. You can't reasonably expect that he would take the children to all things. You wouldn't like it very much if he planned things for them on your weekends. Consulting with him in advance would be your best bet. We have tried to get BioMom and/or kids to ask us first but it never happens. The one weekend thing we had planned all summer was canceled because she took them to Seattle knowing full well what our plans were. We never did get our vacation time either. Let's put it this way: My DH is less likely to agree to these activities the less and less we see of the children.

In our case, BioMom does not motivate the children to do anything. We are always the bad guys because we have rules at our house and because we won't let them sit there wasting their minds on the television.

Just my $.02, Louise

Louise,

I agree with everything you said.

But you have to stop being a doormat about this.

My ex completely flips if I plan ANYTHING on his time. After much yelling and screaming, I have decided that he is right, and I was wrong. Although, I am perfect in every other way. ;-)

Seriously, if an activity is important enough to my daughter, then she will convince him herself. She is 11 yo now, and quite capable of presenting her point of view. Otherwise, if he hasn't agreed to it in advance, then he simply refuses to do it. I don't know if he worries about appearing to be that bad guy or not. I do know that my daughter adores her dad. Whatever issues they have to work out around this, they do it better without my intervention.

For a while this drove me nuts, because we live 3000 miles apart, and I can't bring her to see her friends myself. I, too, think that visitation is "her" time, not mine or his. Then, I realized that I would not respond well to him scheduling things for me to do with her, either. For example, he would like her to be more involved in sports, but I would rather die a slow and painful death that sit through a single children's sporting event.

Just say no.

jane

Sep 01 1998 21:59

[I think I have to speak up here. My stepkids have had something planned on every weekend they have been with us for two years now. We are never consulted in advance . . . I can understand your ex's frustration. Have you tried to see it from his point of view?]

She's tried. Maybe you haven't been around too long, but this lady has bent over backwards, sideways and upside down to accommodate her ex. He just refuses to accommodate the boys' schedules, which I personally find very childish and selfish.

This is not looking at things from his point of view. The boy's visitation with their dad IS their schedule. Anything else they want to do, they have to clear through him and convince him to participate in. I know this is frustrating when you want them to do other things during that time. It has driven me nuts. The bottom line is: you can't schedule anything for the kids during their visitation time with the ex, even if that means they have to miss out on activities you and they would like them to participate in.

None of us, as parents, can dictate when Boy Scouts meets. There are 10, 15 or 35 boys in the group - probably half of them from divorced families - do you really expect that the leader can accommodate EVERY request to hold the meetings at a certain time? The same with karate or any other sport. The practices and games are scheduled WAY ahead of time, and take into account availability of coaches, referees, space, etc. They cannot be pushed around at the whim of an antagonistic parent.

And none of us, as parents, can dictate that our kids go to Boy Scouts during their visitation with our exes. If he won't take them, they just have to miss those meetings. Also, I don't see how you can assume this guy is antagonistic. Maybe he is just lazy. Maybe he wants to go fishing. Maybe he just doesn't care about his kids participating in scouts or karate. If he doesn't, then you really can't expect him to support these activities.

[He gets very limited time with his children and then he can't even plan that time.]

Of course he can. He simply has to take the boys to a 2 or 3 hour karate seminar during that time. By my math, that still leaves him 45 or 46 hours to plan whatever he wants on a weekend. A seminar that HE would have been very welcome to take part in himself, from what I understand. A parent can stand back and whine that they "never see their kids" or they can roll up their sleeves, step in and help out with activities that the kids are involved in. Every group needs volunteers and it would have been an excellent way for Dad to have joined his sons in their interest sport. Instead he chose to REFUSE to let the boy go to the camp.

The most obvious problem with this is that a karate seminar, or any scheduled weekend event, rules out week end trips camping, visiting grandparents, etc. Even more important, it forces one parent to waste his time with the children doing something he doesn't want to do. While he has custody of the kids, he gets to decide what they will participate in. Certainly, he gets to decide what is worth rolling up his own sleeves for. And he can and should be able to see his kids without participating in any activity at all. If Bio-Dad's idea of quality time is eating pizza and watching football all weekend, that's his business. If the kids don't like it, they can tell him, or act up, or do all the other things kids do to demonstrate disapproval.

[You can't reasonably expect that he would take the children to all things. You wouldn't like it very much if he planned things for them on your weekends.

Things happen when they happen.

But they don't HAVE to happen at all.

[Consulting with him in advance would be your best bet . . . Let's put it this way: My DH is less likely to agree to these activities the less and less we see of the children.]

Well, I'd say his problem is with his ex, NOT with the kids. Karla is trying to step back from this stuff and not let it become a fight between the kids and their Dad. She is taking the brunt of the crap from him. Your problem doens't sound the same to me at all. We're talking here about long-term commitments (karate, soccer, hockey, etc.) that cannot be changed and rearranged on a whim just to satisfy a lazy Dad who won't get his butt off the couch and take the kids to their sports. Or who prefers to sit and whine that his time is being "cut into" instead of seeing the benefit of getting out and joining them.

The fight HAS to be between the kids and their dad. If the conflict is between what the kids want and what their dad wants, then they have to resolve it. They just cannot make long-term weekly commitments unless both parents are fully supportive of them. Karla has to let go. She will drive herself nuts trying to get in the middle of this. If dad is lazy or not interested, she cannot and will not make him change. Hopefully, the kids can convince him that it is important enough to them to motivate him. If the ex still has problems with Karla, then he'll never change his mind for her.

jane

Sep 02 1998 12:00 am

[snipped all bits of prior posts]

I am not your husband's former wife...please stop treating me and reacting to me as if I were.

Some facts that have been stated and restated for you:

1. He has the children every weekend
2. He previously agreed to and has always been consulted on all activities pertaining to the boys
3. He does not want to haul his butt across the city to take the boys to activities HE PREVIOUSLY AGREED TO and, in some cases, enrolled them in
4. I refuse to put a 6 year old in the middle of an adult fight

I'm sorry your step-kids bio-mom does those things to you. I find it ridiculous that I HAVE to put into the divorce agreement:

"Mr. X will agree to take the children to religious services at least twice a month or allow Mrs. X to pick them up, take them to services and return the children to him after services are over."

and

"Mr. X will agree to honor all commitments to the childrens' activities he has previously agreed to. This includes regular attendance at karate and special events associated with karate, boy scout and any other activities that may fall on the weekends. Mrs. X will agree to consult with Mr. X before enrolling the children in any activities that may fall on the weekend."

In other words: I ain't your husband's ex.

As for your argument that it's between the kids and the parent...well you didn't listen to your step-son too well about his soccer jamboree when he tried to propose a way to cover both now did you. You were so angry at his mother for not notifying you on your schedule that you totally shut down any other possibilities.

Being a parent (and a step parent) can be a great joy and a great burden at the same time. My focus at this point is on what is best for the kids. I'm not perfect and I'm not an expert...especially on this whole step-parenting thing. There are a number of things that I would do differently than my S/O and there are a number of things that I tread *very* lightly on so that his kids aren't detesting me.

For the most part, I do all right. I like to quote Elaine Konigsburg when it comes to these things: I knew I would make mistakes, I knew I would be wonderful. I did and I was.

The problem isn't between him and the kids, it's between me and him. We are the adults, not James and Micah. They are 9 and 6. I don't say "yes" to everything they want but there are some things that I feel are important to them developmentally. Karate is important to the kids. I did not push it on them, they requested to study it. I happen to like karate (yes, I had a crush on David Carradine back when Kung Fu was a first run series...I admit it) and, because my children encouraged me to follow one of my dreams, I am now studying it myself.

I happen to like baseball. (OK, so I *love* baseball...I really do think that the rest of sports happen to keep us distracted until baseball season begins.) I never pushed it on my kids. When James came home begging to be on t-ball with his friends, it was the first group activity he wanted to be a part of. I went so far as to call Little League of America to find a loophole to the age rule so he could play with his friends and classmates. I would do anything for my boys...they only get to be kids once.

Thier dad is a musician. He has been whining (yes whining is the correct word) about how the boys should take an instrument instead of karate. I do not see the two as mutually exclusive. I have taught the boys some of the basics of music. We sing together a lot and I sing to them constantly (I am a trained contralto). I have taught them to identify certain stylings of specific composers based on the music they love from the Disney movies they see. (OK, let's listen to "Colors of the Wind" now I want you to listen to these songs and tell me what sounds the same and then I'll play "Corner of the Sky" from Pippin and "By My Side" from Godspell and teach them about how Schwartz uses a specific progression in his ballads.) I have inquired about instruments for James now that he is in fourth grade.

What has their dad done?

You guessed it...nothing. Mr. "I went to New England Conservatory of Music" Mr. "I studied under this great person and that great person" Mr. "the boys need to learn an instrument" has done NOTHING. He hasn't even taught them a major scale.

Religion is another hot one for me. Mr. "Any children of mine are being raised as Jews" does not take them to services, does not teach them about their faith. Nothing. I have to threaten a legal action for him to take the kids to religious services. I'm the one who is trying to encourage James to learn Hebrew by learning with him. I am the one who makes sure they say their prayers daily, know about little things like the tenets of their faith, the traditions that go along with their faith, etc. I'm the one that enrolled them in Hebrew school (which he takes them to so he can have two hours of rehearsal time with one of his bands). They are on my family membership to the Temple. I tell them Mishnah stories. I tell them the wonderful little Hassidic tales about morality. I'm the one raising them to know that being Jewish is something more than an accident of birth.

Not bad for a lapsed Catholic and ordained minister. (Yes, I'm a practicing Jew...it's a long story. Let's just say that I'm a pagan Jew with Christian roots in need of a dye job.)

Not all bio-moms are evil controlling *itches. Life isn't ideal...if it was, we wouldn't have gotten divorced in the first place. The point I am making is maybe this world doesn't center around my kids, but dammit, it's such a short window of time for them to be the center of the universe, why would you deprive them of that.

The next time you want to take the kids on a trip or do something special with them, why not call their mom and see if there's anything on the calendar that weekend? Phones work two ways you know. Maybe if you had called and said, "We're planning a special trip to the beach this weekend. We wanted to make sure that there weren't any schedule conflicts, do any of the kids have...." perhaps the Thursday call wouldn't have been necessary or it would have given bio-mom enough time to say the jamboree wasn't happening so that it wouldn't have been a battle. -- karla

I snipped all prior posts here, because I could no longer figure out who said what. I'm not entirely sure who you are responding to. I think it is Snickers. I'm going to try to respond one more time then let this go.

It bothers me that your response is so angry. Nothing you say about BD sounds awful to me. He's different from you. Some people like organized sports, others like the beach. Some like to hang out and veg during visitation, others like to cram a lot of activities into the time. Some people like to instruct their children about music and the bible; others like to watch football and color. Sometimes people decide to give activities like scouting and karate a try, then decide it is too much of a pain in the butt (after all, this has been going on for years since he agreed). If we persist in trying to change each other, we torture our children. If we accept the differences, they can enrich our children's lives.

People disagree a lot on the importance of church, competitive sports, cultural pursuits, violent movies, chores, etc. Most people agree that kids should have access to both parents. You determine what the children do, watch, eat, drink, wear, and read while they are with you. He decides these things while they are with him. If an issue is important enough, you put it in your parenting agreement. If you can't negotiate things out later, you go back to family court with a motion. Otherwise, it's each parent's call while they have the kids. If you persist in waging this war about how the ex spends his time with the kids, you will lose. What's important is that they have time with their dad, not whether they are playing soccer or nintendo.

Every single poster on this board has some experience with the frustration you feel. But deep inside we know that this is the consequence of our own choices. We are the ones who chose to have these children and/or mate with these parents. We ALL wish sometimes that we could change the way things went at the "other" house. After all, if we didn't have any differences of opinion with the exes, we would still be with them.

Venting about your frustration is fine, but if you do it in a NG, you have to expect people to disagree with you. Several people have taken the time to comment on your posts and attempt to present a different point of view. Your last response sounds a lot like a personal attack on Snickers.

jane

Sep 2 1998 12:00 am

So Merrie as an example: A 9 yo daughter wants and loves to play soccer. She plays house league and all star. This means 1 game and 2 practices per week plus a tournament every other weekend. Lets say her Dad is to have her every Wed each week and every other weekend. Are you saying that the time with Dad wins over the soccer, because the Dad thinks that the soccer is dumb and cant be bothered to drive her to the tournament that weekend.? I think not.

Of course the time with dad wins. I just don't understand how you can diminish the parental relationship like this. Let go of one league. Schedule dad's visits on another night. Adjust your schedule so that tournaments don't fall on the weekends she is with him. Work with her coach.

I'm going to call my ex and tell him how lucky he is to have me. Whatever my faults, I never felt my daughter needed soccer more than she needed her dad.

jane

Sep 03 1998 06:38

Of course... Dad couldn't readjust *his* schedule to work round the child's activities and obligations... same as most mums have to...

We don't have to. We choose to. And if the dads were telling us that we had to, it would make us pretty resentful too.

jane

Sep 03 1998 07:16

SSM,

I can't believe this. I popped over here to see where this thread is coming from, and here you are!

I am glad I stopped over. I really like Julie's posts. She says what I want to say without being a brute.

[snip prior posts]

I *really* don't want to get into this with you again, but don't you get that you yourself have created the problem with weekend schedules for your kids?

Your daughter should not have to choose between seeing her Dad on a weekend and living the normal social life of a teenage girl, including attending football games at her school.

If he were living in the same town as she, and he were refusing to let her go, he would be wrong, wrong, wrong. Ditto for swimming, soccer, anything within reason that you had both agreed made sense for the kids.

But since he lives 2 hours away by your choice, it is an either/or proposition. That's why I am so vehemently opposed to allowing CPs to move the kids away from an involved NCP. It sets up these awful situations where a kid has to choose between a normal life and seeing their own parent!

[snip]

Maybe this is why I am on the NCP side of the fence in this thread. I moved my daughter 3000 miles away from her dad. I am not second-guessing my decision, but it has complicated her life. We really have to finely tune vacation schedules so that she can make the ski/camping/mexico trip out here and still get her three weeks with her dad. I don't know what we are going to do when she graduates from year round school. It allows her to go back there several times a year.

It's just so clear to me that what she needs is her dad. It doesn't matter if they are golfing or playing video games. She needs to be with him. If she could see her dad every week, she wouldn't care what they did.

jane

Sep 03 1998 07:21

[It bothers me that your response is so angry. Nothing you say about BD sounds awful to me. He's different from you . . .If we persist in trying to change each other, we torture our children. If we accept the differences, they can enrich our children's lives.]

The chap has the child with him, *every* weekend (which can be about as much of a schoolchild's free time as the other working parent gets all week). Why can't he devote one (or part of one) of those days each week to the child's preferences and the other entirely to what *he* wants to do with the child? Is that really so unfair?

Yes, he CAN. Of course, he can. But why on earth should he have to?

Yes, it is that unfair. The BD in the original post is being berated for not allowing his entire visitation to be planned ahead of time by BM. Granted BD has the kids for two days per week. However, although he lives on the other side of town, he is expected to spend his day driving the children to baseball, hebrew lessons, religious services, scout meetings, the FOURTH karate lesson of the week, and apparently, trumpet lessons. Which day do you suggest he enjoy? He's not supposed to enjoy either of them, that's the plan, because "...part of being a parent is going to all those things that you hate to support your kids."

This battle is not about letting the kids engage in an activity they enjoy. BM states unequivocally that this is a battle between her and the ex, "The problem isn't between him and the kids, it's between me and him." She repeatedly states, "I refuse to put a 6 year old in the middle of an adult fight." IMO, the only reason there is any fight going on here is because BM can't let go of her own issues with the ex. Left alone, the children would work these issues out with their dad.

BM is still trying to force her irresponsible ex to grow up.

This theme recurs throughout her posts:

"I started this thread and that was how do I protect my kids from their dad's failings."
"That isn't fair and it isn't responsible adult behavior."
"Why should they have to act like the adult instead of their NCP?"
"We are the adults, not James and Micah."

Meanwhile, BM repeatedly invalidates BD's choices regarding "quality" time with his sons.

"If a quality activity is blown off for Saturday morning cartoons or video games, then something needs to be reexamined."
"But when they aren't going because they're sitting at home playing Nintendo...well, yeah, I have a REAL problem with that."
Mr. "I went to New England Conservatory of Music"
Mr. "I studied under this great person and that great person"
Mr. "the boys need to learn an instrument" has done NOTHING. He hasn't even taught them a major scale."
"Reality is the kids *want* to participate but he want's them to himself."

So what? Maybe it isn't her way or my way or your way, but apparently BD feels closer to his sons watching cartoons and playing Nintendo than he does teaching them hebrew and musical construction. What's important here is that the children be allowed to work out their relationship with their dad. He is not the kind of person who enjoys or excels in a tightly organized schedule of activities. The kids have as much right to enjoy and/or reject his laid-back parenting style as they do BM's dynamic one.

Commitment is a another huge issue for BM that comes up in every one of her posts. She states, "One thing we need to teach our kids is to commit. Especially since our marriages, one of the biggest commitments we have made in our lives, have failed for one reason or another." When BM says, "Not honoring committments he made, stating one thing and then acting in another manner, etc. are awful things in my book," I hear her continued anger about BD's failure in his marriage to her. Because he failed to keep his commitments within their marriage, she repeatedly adds new "commitments" on him via the children's schedule.

He reluctantly agrees to these to avoid further fighting, then blows it off when she is not there to yell at him. BM says, "That is called passive-aggressive behavior and is something that pushes a large number of buttons for me." That's who he is; that's why she left him. There is no point carrying your personal war with the ex into the separate co-parenting stage of the children's lives. If BD has a problem with commitment, BM needs to work around that, not repeatedly set him up for failure to make him look bad in the children's eyes.

For some reason, BM needs this fight with the ex to keep going on. She is still trying to prove that she was "right" in the marriage and BD was "wrong." Despite his history of resistant behavior, she continues to add new "commitments" to the schedule. She refuses to let the kids work out their own relationship with dad. She refuses to let the court decide what is fair. It drives her crazy that she can't control this aspect of her children's lives.

And she can't see that she is still trying to change the ex. They are no longer a couple. She has to let it go. Her job now is to help the children to see and learn from BD's good qualities, not to keep harping on what she perceives to be his failings.

It is always going to be possible to knock out the child's activity now and again for the chap's sake and vice versa when something crops up that covers the whole weekend (sports tournament, fishing trip, whatever).

BTW, what do you folks do when the parent who is supposed to be caring for the child on day x comes down with flu or whatever? Does the custody resting with the responsible parent for that day take priority (and is enforced) regardless of their temporary unfitness, or do you give and take in such situations... even if it messes up what you had originally planned...?

If it is at all possible, I accommodate the ex. Stuff comes up; you roll with it.

jane

Sep 03 1998 11:29

Are you in the mental health profession? I learned a lot from this post - it put into words some vague notions I have about what may be going on between my husband and his ex. Thanks, SSM

No, not at all. I'm just nuts.

I have some personal and professional experience with divorce and separate co-parenting. Divorce is especially hard with kids. People who have been hurt by their mates want to protect their children from that pain. Also, to extract yourself from a relationship, you focus on all the negatives to give yourself the strength to survive losing all the positives. At the same time, you have to make sure that the kids stay connected with the good side. You know. You have to keep telling yourself that he is an irresponsible spendthrift at the same time you are reinforcing your children's view of him as a generous free spirit. That kind of thing. Then, it takes such a herculean effort to get out of a marriage, that some people stay caught up in it after the divorce. The fight becomes such a huge part of their lives that if they let go of it, then they will have nothing.

I tell you, if my ex ever read my posts on this thread, he would die laughing. We have been around this block a few times. I have learned that the more I push, the less he does. Also, he will do anything for his daughter, but nothing for me. It's actually not such a bad deal.

jane

Sep 03 1998 15:59

What does the CHILD want? Or doesn't that matter?

It's certainly a factor I consider. During DH's time, he considers it, too. It is not determinative for either of us. Sometimes we say yes. Sometimes we say no.

jane

Sep 03 1998 18:49

All right, this is REALLY my last post in this thread.

No.. Dad needs to adjust his schedule to fit his daughters soccer schedule.

No, he doesn't. He doesn't need to do a damned thing. If the daughter can convince him that soccer is important enough to her life, then he may choose to. Otherwise, dad's responsibility as a parent is to ensure that he spends quality time with his daughter during visitation. This can be whatever activity he considers valuable to his child or to their relationship. This can be playing Nintendo. (I feel like such a heretic.)

Besides that, kids activities have to fit into their parents' lives. This summer my daughter had to quit dance and karate, and miss planned junior life guard and university in the park programs because her dad's schedule changed. My SS missed half a month of football training camp because DH's schedule changed. When I broke my leg, I could not drive, and all the kids had to give up anything they couldn't bike to. This is life. The world does not and never will grant your children all their wishes.

Why should the daughter drop one of the leagues if she and the mom are able to commit to the schedule?

Because this is not her or her mom's decision. They cannot make commitments for dad. While the child is with dad, HE decides what extracurricular activities are important. He also can change his mind. My ex takes my child to play golf. For most of the year, my SS lives to play football. I would never choose these activities. I like to camp, go to the beach, and explore zoos and museums. If I had my child one school night per week, then I would spend it going over her school work. Of course, extracurricular activities are out of the question on school nights at my house anyway.

If you think that a soccer tournament can be scheduled around one persons schedule, than you really dont get it.

I have done the soccer thing, thank you very much. In fact, I have also done the swim thing, the dive thing, the football thing, the cheerleading thing, and the karate thing. I thank god that we are currently doing the dance thing, because parents are not allowed to stay and watch. I enjoy none of this. I would never do it because my ex wanted me to. I do this for love of my children.

jane

Sep 04 1998 13:11

Merrie: Yes, I am saying time with Dad wins over the soccer. I'm telling you that the time my step-sons spend with their mother is more important than any other activity they might do. That soccer ball will never love them the way that she does, and regardless of what nasty little habits and attitudes they pick up from her, the habits will never be as damaging as it would be to their sense of self if she didn't love them and show it by spending her time with them.

MJ: And what better way to show how much she does loves and supports them by hanging out at a soccer field all day from 8 am - 5 pm! Ok I am done!

Merrie: Are you kidding me? How about fixing them a delicious picnic lunch and hiking to a quiet beautiful spot and talking with them? How about an afternoon looking back over their baby pictures and sharing fond memories?

How about spending an entire afternoon together playing Final Fantasy III on nintendo and defeating the evil Keska and restoring peace to the free world?

That has more ACTUAL INTERACTION with the kid than spending the day yaking with the other soccer moms while the kid kicks the ball.

By the way - I know little of nintendo and had to ask my step-son to provide information for the preceeding example. I do remember though that years ago, his mother and he would play Zelda, and they had hours of conversation revolving around it. It was an adventure they undertook together, and I'm sure he has many fond memories of it.

Julie: This reminded me of something - years ago Josh taught me how to play that old Super Mario game. He was 5 at the time, and was so proud to be able to teach me something and to share something that *he* liked with me. He'd go off to his dad's leaving me with an "assignment" to get to a certain level by the time he got home. He explained that this would get us a little closer to making it a challenge for him. Kids... :-)

Anyway, I wouldn't have given up that experience for anything, and had it been a visitation and his dad told me that my time was to be spent hanging out at the hockey rink or on the baseball diamond, I would have resented it quite a lot.

My mother was "feeling poorly" for a long time before she died. For the most part, she stayed in bed reading and watching tv. I bought her an old Nintendo game at a yard sale to see if she liked it. Best $20 I ever spent. From then on, we sat around playing Dr. Mario and Mario Brothers for hours while we talked. I have such fond memories.

I can't tell you why, but that stupid Nintendo game made it much easier for me to spend time with my mother in her last year or so. It took the pressure off and helped us relax with each other, I guess. When the conversation flagged, I didn't take off and do something else. I just played in silence for a while until we thought of something else to talk about.

jane

Sep 04 1998 14:54

[Even more important, it forces one parent to waste his time with the children doing something he doesn't want to do. While he has custody of the kids, he gets to decide what they will participate in.]

Why? Mother doesn't while she has custody!

[I do. I don't know what you mean.]

So you decide whether or not they will participate in education (as mandated by law) while they are in your custody? I certainly can't!

Well, I was referring to extracurricular activities. Now that you mention it, tho, I do decide whether she will be educated at home or at a school.

There are some 'discretionary' activities which might not be specifically mandated but would certainly harm the kids and get me into trouble for neglect were I to not see that the kids participated - dental and medical attention, buying clothes for them etc. Do you think I would CHOOSE to spend my time with the kids shopping with them, escorting them for dental checks and to the doctor's surgery?

Maybe not. I don't mind it. Combined, these activities take up about 12 hours out of my year.

What about homework?

Well, this still isn't an extracurricular activity, but I suppose you could say the children "participate" in it. Here, I see your point. The parent who has the children should make sure that homework is done. Not all parents do. In fact it amazes me that I know so many people who take no interest in their children's homework.

In this area of parenting, I would rate my ex "Pretty Much Useless." OTOH, he has these rare moments of brilliance which totally throw me off. We could fight over this. In fact, we have. It didn't help. Now I just fit all the "dad time" homework into "my time." I have to admit that this might be more of a problem if he regularly had her on a school night.

Sorry - there are lots of things connected with the kids which I have to participate in whether I like it or not for the benefit of the kids.

I still don't see what you are talking about. Even with homework, the amount of time and effort you put in is your choice. I applaud you for doing it, but no one is holding a gun to your head.

I see an hour or so out of a day involved with something like a sports game/practice no different as far as the child's benefit goes. If one parent is doing the bulk of the routine medical/homework activities which involve the kids during that parent's time with the child, why should the other not have some obligation to deal with other minor duties regarding the child's activities during their time.

Because it's not a "duty." I'm going to assume that you are correlating sports and homework, since I can connect with you there. The homework takes up big chunks of your time with the kids, so the ex should be willing to give up some of his time for sports. I can see that. That sounds fair. If you agree to this division of labor, it's fine with me. If you were in agreement, we wouldn't be having this discussion, tho. Kids "have to" do homework; they don't have to play soccer.

Each of the parents may well prefer not to do these activities because it cuts into the free time they and the child have together, but most parents who care about their kids are willing to attend to those activities because they benefit the child. What makes mothers and fathers different in that regard?

They are different people. They have different opinions and values. They choose different activities to benefit their children. It seems to me that children's weekend activities are determined by three factors: their own desires, their parent's values, and the circumstances. If you asked the parents of the world what they think their children should be doing on weekends, you would get a broad spectrum of answers. Among these would be: working, unstructured play, relaxing, sports, studying (don't they have school on Saturdays in Japan now?), practicing an instrument, body-building, communing with nature, prayer, expressing themselves through art, writing, dancing, volunteer work in the community, and myriad others. You can't force your own values on your ex.

Here's an example from my life: My SD was not doing well at school last year. I believe her GPA was 0.67. BM and her current husband believe in instilling a strong work ethic in the children. DH and I believe that a strong academic base is more important. BM allowed SD to take a 20 hr/wk job after school and on weekends. When SD came to our house, DH told her that jobs were out of the question here until she brought her GPA up to 3.0. I'm sure you can picture SD's outrage. I am sure that BM thought DH was being completely unreasonable. OTOH, DH thought BM was out of her mind.

This whole conflict was the result of the BPs' completely different values. BM was very frustrated because her child is not learning the work skills and discipline which BM feels she needs to function as an adult. DH feels that we all work for fifty years and that SD can pick up those skills along the way. To him, this is her time to gain knowledge to bring into her adult working years. BM feels that most of what you learn in high school is irrelevant to day-to-day life and work as an adult. She thinks that SD needs to boost her self-esteem by earning money. DH would prefer she use academic accomplishment to buttress her self-esteem. These two are never going to convince each other; to each, the other's perspective has no merit at all.

[snip discussion]
Now, do you understand?

Well, I do understand your resentment about homework. It really does take up a huge amount of the week night time with the children. I still decide what activities (outside school) the kids participate in, tho. I also decide to what extent I will participate with them.

I just read Julie's post, and it clarified something for me. No matter how much my daughter wanted to go hunting, I would never be willing to do it during my time with her. Nothing she or her dad said or did would ever convince me. If they *suggested* it, I would refuse and move on, shaking my head in disbelief. However, any attempt by the ex to *force* me to do it would polarize us, and completely destroy our working relationship. That's really my point: If you try to "make" them do it your way, you're just going to piss them off.

jane