Jane's Posts

Sep 11 1998 12:00 am

It follows that the meaning assigned by usage cannot be "incorrect," and any argument based on a contrary assumption is nonsense.

Okay, but what do you do about the infer/imply issue then? Some people use the word "infer" as a synonym for "imply," as in, "Are you inferring I'm fat?" Should the dictionary just list the two meanings? How will the user know that people like me automatically think, "You mean imply?" Because this usage is contrary to logic and the word's etymology, I automatically reject it. Also, a user of the dictionary could easily infer that "inference" was then synonymous with "implication."

Then, of course, there is the whole "between you and I" thing. I have to confess that I have a violent knee-jerk reaction whenever I hear this phrase and instantly think the speaker is an idiot. It's not pretty. I have no defense. It just drives me crazy. It is, however, a very common usage. So what should the dictionary include in the definition of "I?" That the word can be used instead of "me" after prepositions? That if you do, Jane Lawrence will cringe?

I don't mean to reduce this argument to the absurd, but what would you do about "could of?" I see this written all the time. If your dictionary is determined entirely by usage, then you really have to include "have" in your definition of "of."

I guess I am asking you what you think the dictionary's responsibility regarding relative acceptability of the various meanings should be. Would you leave all prescription of meanings for newsgroups and usage guides? Larger dictionaries, of course, can simply add a little usage note, but what should abridged and pocket versions do? I know that dictionary editors frequently describe an entry as informal or colloquial. Even my all accepting Webster's still describes "irregardless" as "Nonstandard." Would you include these little warning tags?

I'm just wondering what you think. I think that you should be able to find just about any meaning of the word in a dictionary. I also want to know if I will sound like an idiot if I choose a particular meaning. I can't decide how common usage should be before it is included.

jane

Sep 14 1998 12:00 am

[So what should the dictionary include in the definition of "I?" That the word can be used instead of "me" after prepositions? That if you do, Jane Lawrence will cringe?]

I agree with you about "infer/imply" but the rage I feel when I hear "between you and I" is more complicated. It tends to be used by people of little education who've been made to feel anxious lest they get it wrong. They'd really be better off following their instinct. There's a strong natural inclination -- at least in speech -- to use "me", even in the subject position:

"Me and my brother borrowed money from my mother...."

This doesn't bother me -- even "me and him went down town" doesn't grate on me in the same way that "between you and I" grates on me. The reason, I think, is because we're all aware of the natural tendency to use "me" -- we were there once ourselves, however briefly. Whereas, *no one* has a natural tendency to say "between you and I".

I hear a staggering number of college-educated people use "I" after prepositions. I heard my professors use it in graduate school. I think my horror is caused by the realization that many children grow up hearing their parents do it. Pretty soon people are going to start correcting me. I'll have to kill them.

I agree that "Me and...." is no where near as grating. I rarely hear it used by adults, though.

So when I hear the dastardly phrase, it does annoy me, but it also makes me wonder whether we wouldn't do better to let people follow their instincts in spoken language, and enjoy the variety, rather than trying to impose a standard spoken English on everyone.

[snip]

In the child rearing context, I look at language as a subset of etiquette. I don't make the rules. But I have to teach them to my children. I may think that they are the most perfect and special human beings in the whole world, but they can't expect the rest of the world to think so. If they go to someone's house for dinner and pick their teeth at the table or say the soup is "fucking awesome," I want them to be aware of the impression they are making. I don't expect them to be little martinets, but I want them to be aware of the rules they disregard.

jane