Jane's Posts

Aug 12 1998

[finding things in step-son's room, including step-mom's lingerie]

We were never really quite sure what he was doing with the lingerie items -- I left that issue to dh to handle. He had a whole collection of silky things in his room, God knows where he got the rest of them.

Actually, I thought the lingerie thing was pretty funny in a "yucckkkk" kind of way. My SS having a secret lingerie cache wouldn't bother me. I would figure he was using it for masturbation or cross-dressing or some other adolescent sexual experimentation. Finding MY lingerie in his room would make me wonder if he were fantasizing about me. The idea is so ludicrous that I can't help laughing.

Anyway, since there was a bunch of it, only one piece of which was yours, I'd assume it was an accident.

jane

Aug 13 1998

No, no, more than one piece, and believe me it was no accident (I probably didn't make that clear before, sorry, I'm more than a little stressed!) He admitted to taking 2 of the 3 things -- totally lied about the 3rd 9as if I don't know my own clothing!)

Forgive me for laughing. This has to make you shudder. It's just the absurdity of it: of all the hassles you expect to deal with as a step-parent, noise, discipline, marital tension, financial pressure, etc., the last thing I would have considered was my step-SON stealing my underwear. (SD has filched more than one bra.)

I'm still holding out hope that he considered this generic women's lingerie, not yours. Maybe he just picked it up because yours was the most accessible for a teenage boy. I can't deal with the alternative.

jane

Aug 12 1998

Sorry, just one more thing. My opinion is that the house is our property and we have every right to know what is going on under our roof as we will ultimately be responsible for consequences. I feel that gives me the right to use whatever means available to me to find out what SS is up to, where he goes, who he talks to, and where his money goes. He is not of legal age and therefore, he falls under our jurisdiction. Maybe that seems severe to some, but I am firm on this issue.

I don't see how you can expect them to respect your privacy if you don't respect theirs.

jane

Aug 13 1998

I don't see how you can expect them to respect your privacy if you don't respect theirs.

I have explained to my kids many times that I, as their parent, am responsible for many of their actions, and that their privacy is not the constitutional right (US-centric, sorry) that mine is.
Vicki

Vicki,

I have been trying to answer you without sounding didactic and judgmental all day. Unfortunately, I broke my leg a few weeks ago, and it really hurts. My daughter has been gone for a week. Also, it is 90 degrees here and muggy. We don't have an air conditioner. Ants invaded my kitchen for the third straight morning. I think the local supermarket manager hides the ant cups so that he can laugh at people with broken legs hobbling through the store and trying to jump up to the top shelf to reach them. What follows is the best I could do for a tactful and moderate response:

I agree that we have to take some responsibility for our children's actions. But we really have no more right to privacy than they do. Legally or morally.

Within a family, our privacy is by consent. Sure, we can put locks on our doors (and I can see that that may be warranted at times), but we are vulnerable the first time we leave the keys out. If the children don't believe that we are entitled to personal privacy as a basic human right, then they will not afford us any. If privacy IS a basic human right, then they are entitled to it, too. Like everything else, they learn how to treat people by how we treat them. If we read their personal papers, they will read ours. If we go through their drawers and rooms, they will do likewise.

This isn't the kind of thing you can just mandate. The kids have to really believe it. Otherwise, they will eavesdrop on your conversations, read any papers you leave lying around, discuss all your private business with their friends, etc. You cannot stop them from doing these things, and for the most part you can't even call them on it. If you can't say, "I would never do that to you," you can't expect them to believe it's wrong.

I *do* respect their privacy, but they know that if I suspect that they're using drugs, for example, all bets are off. It *is* my responsibility to find out and get them help, even against their wills, until they are 18 and move out, and to fulfill that responsibility I will snoop relentlessly *if I think it's justified*. Without grounds, I think that they are entitled to privacy, but they have to continue to earn it with their daily behavior, good grades and association with other good kids.

I don't see how snooping can help you with any of these things. Surely you know what your children's grades are, whether they are doing drugs, and who they hang with. From your posts, I know you do. You talk to them, spend time with them, observe them. Some of us have periods of denial, but a parent in the snooping stage is past the denial stage. Snooping is a cheap shortcut into your children's world that will only alienate them from you.

And another thing (I am really on a roll), I don't believe for a second that when the kids turn 18 and move out of your home, you will automatically be able to change your feelings and actions toward them. You will still worry about their grades, drugs, friends, etc. How would you know how they were doing, if you spent their teens learning about them by snooping? Would they tell you? They just spent their teens learning how to conceal whatever they could from you! The worst part is that the more trouble they were in, the more they needed your help, the less they would share with you, because YOU taught them to hide it.

I value my privacy as much as anyone else. It drives me crazy when the kids take my things. Actually, I hate it when my husband takes my things. I, too, am tempted to retaliate in kind and rifle through their belongings for things I "know" they took. I resist this impulse, because I am convinced that our children learn by our example. Besides, I hate it so much that I couldn't live with myself if I did it to them.

There. Now I am going to take some pain killers and put myself to bed.

jane

Aug 14 1998

[all prior posts snipped]

Not only that, he's going to send the security videos to "America's Funniest Home Videos" and when he wins the prize he won't split it with you.

Sincere sympathy on your discomfort, and seems to me that your husband should recognize that a broken leg *needs* at least a bedroom air conditioner.

DH can be thick as molasses. I got a fan, though. I spoke to my daughter. I am in a better mood.

These ants have given me a whole new perspective on environmental protection. I'm finding them in my office now. What do I do if the get into the computer? I gave up on vaseline and cinnamon days ago. Ant cups and sprays seem to have no effect. If this Terro stuff doesn't work, I'm looking for DDT.

[snip]

The snooping (if it ever happened) could only occur after every parental alarm bell that I have is going off. You're right, I do know my kids. We talk, we go places, I know their friends and I am aware of what's going on in school. So is their dad, and we work together. Snooping is not necessary, and I don't do it. I think I could have been clearer here; the snooping would take place when the kids are lying about their whereabouts, when their grades start dropping, they smell like smoke or booze when they stagger in two hours after curfew and their friends all have pictures hanging in the post office. Then I will have no hesitation about doing whatever I need to do to get information that I can use to help them, even without their cooperation. But my kids are normal kids in most ways; I can generally trust what they say, and if they lie to me, they're innocuous lies that serve the short term goal of avoiding another boring "parent" lecture/discussion. I've never gone through their things, and they know it. They've never given me a reason to do so. I don't expect that they ever will.

[snip]

Ah, Jane, you've misunderstood me, I think. I am asserting the right, as the parent of minor children, to protect them when they need protecting, when their own choices are bad ones. Just as the police are empowered to get a court order to search my house for drugs or weapons or stolen property if they have good cause to believe that I've been doing illegal things, I am empowered by my moral responsibility for their health and well-being to search their property too, when I have cause to believe that they are doing things that they should not be doing. Not on a pre-emptive basis; you're right, kids need privacy too, and if they are not abusing their freedoms and their priviledges they have a right to it.

I've never been a big fan of those who would support the erosion of civil liberties with the justification "If you're not doing anything wrong, you have nothing to worry about." But, just as an adult's civil liberties can be abrogated when there is sufficient evidence to believe that he is engaging in criminal activities, I will abrogate my children's for the same reasons, although not to punish, but to "rehabilitate."

Vicki,

I agree with a lot of what you say. BUT, I still don't think that sneaking around snooping on your kids is the way to go. It's taking the easy way out.

In the first place, ALL kids do something that you can use as an excuse for spying on them. I "know" that if I go into the kids' rooms and poke through their stuff, I will find the razors, makeup, dresses, scissors, staplers, and all the other things that I have been looking for for months. I could convince myself that I need something, search their rooms (maybe my paper clips are in the shoe box on the shelf in her closet; maybe my nail file is in her diary), and confront them with anything I find. There is always a pretext you can use.

In the second place, you can tell without snooping. If your kid smiles beatifically then falls asleep in the mashed potatoes he hasn't been eating, think heroin. If he suddenly decides to clean his room, think speed. If he sits in a corner watching the dog, saying, "Oh, wow, man," think pot. If you have lived a sheltered life, there are plenty of books, pamphlets, and web sites that can educate you.

Mainly, I think you have to talk to them. If you say, "Your cousin Tommy was arrested for pot possession," and your child responds, "I think the Bengals are going to to go all the way this year," or, "Well, you drink beer. It's the same thing," then you know it's time for a heart-to-heart.

OTOH, I completely agree that your duty to parent can conflict with your children's right to privacy. If they are having a problem, you may need to go to extraordinary lengths to help them. I just think you should be up-front about it. As a practical matter, you have to expect them to hide whatever they don't want you to find outside the house. And you have to accept that no matter how much you want to, you cannot solve their problems for them.

I think my visceral reaction comes from my own bizarre, "don't ask, don't tell" upbringing. My parents never discussed sex, drugs, drinking, domestic violence, rape, or any other "unpleasant" issue with us. Perhaps coincidentally, at 16 yo I regularly lied, stole, drank, smoked, had sex, cut school, cheated on exams, and did whatever drugs I could find. One day, my parents confronted me with a bag of pot or pills they had found in my closet. I couldn't believe it! These were the same people I stumbled by totally blasted every weekend night. Suddenly, they were acting like it was all a big surprise. So I moved out and supported myself by selling drugs at my high school.

I loved my parents till the day they died, but I think they made some mistakes raising me. What I could have used was attention, guidance and support. If they had not put off dealing with the idea that their child was having problems for so long, maybe they could have helped me with some of them. They didn't have to spy on me to find out; it was right there in front of them.

jane
(the sedentary formicidae annihilator)

Aug 14 1998

In theory I must say that I agree with Jim and Jane about demonstrating respect for step-children's privacy however... I guess, first of all Jim, I don't really understand how removing the door from your SS's room does this. Not that I think it was the wrong thing to do.

My guess is that Jim wanted to demonstrate how unpleasant it is to have one's privacy violated without physically invading his child's room.

I do think that this is a fair and equitable system and would I feel the same if she did likewise to us? You bet!

This sounds perfectly reasonable to me.

jane